WHS Handicap Index

rulefan

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The question comes why are they only playing socially when once a lot were quite clearly fairly active?

Maybe it's about feeling that they cannot compete.

Maybe if they were to put in the necessary cards to be given a H.I. which reflects current ability maybe they would start playing comps again.

My own view is why give them a Handicap Index based upon very old data which is then going to make it harder to get to a H.I. which reflects their current ability. Why not simply not give then a H.I. until they submit 3 cards and treat them like a newly handicapped player. However their was a minor uproar at our club when they were informed this could happen. It seems that to quite a few having handicap is more important than having a correct handicap.
Prior to the actual conversion clubs will be given a 'pre run'. This will give the committee an opportunity to spot and plan how to deal with 'anomalies'.
After the actual transition, the committee should look at the lists and may/should adjust the HI of any player they feel is incorrect. Of course they should have sorted out the caps of players who have 'out of date' caps in previous annual reviews.
 

mikejohnchapman

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The period goes back to Jan 2018.

They will take the last 20 qualifying scores. Start with the oldest and calculate a score differential as if it it was the players first card. It will be repeated in age sequence until all 20 scores have been processed. Then use the best 8 to determine the handicap index. if there are less than 20 scores the table in post #3 will be used.
Are you implying they will use the WHS methodology to do this? If so how will they map the courses currently used with SSS with the new ones we are loading into the WHS Portal?
 

rulefan

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Are you implying they will use the WHS methodology to do this? If so how will they map the courses currently used with SSS with the new ones we are loading into the WHS Portal?
Not implying, that is the way it will work.
The USGA assessed Slope and Course Rating will be used. NB All CONGU courses (except England Men's) have had USGA Slope and Course Ratings (as SSS) for many years.
But I'm not sure if the original SSS (England Men) will be used for scores where the new CR is different to the old SSS (because of course changes). I suspect not.

Those few courses which have not yet had a USGA rating will use the SSS and have a temporary 'average' slope rating assigned.
For all rated courses, the SSS is already the assessed Course Rating.
 
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jim8flog

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. Of course they should have sorted out the caps of players who have 'out of date' caps in previous annual reviews.
!!! How do you adjust the handicap of a player with no handicap history for several years?

We spotted this problem when handicaps were increased to 54.

Players with a reasonable handicap history were revised in line with the increase but we could do nothing to those without.
 

rulefan

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!!! How do you adjust the handicap of a player with no handicap history for several years?

We spotted this problem when handicaps were increased to 54.

Players with a reasonable handicap history were revised in line with the increase but we could do nothing to those without.
The committee is entitled to make an assessment.
The player can be asked if they would be prepared to put 3 cards in or ask to be unregistered and thereby not have a handicap at all.
 

mikejohnchapman

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Not implying, that is the way it will work.
The USGA assessed Slope and Course Rating will be used. NB All CONGU courses (except England Men's) have had USGA Slope and Course Ratings (as SSS) for many years.
But I'm not sure if the original SSS (England Men) will be used for scores where the new CR is different to the old SSS (because of course changes). I suspect not.

Those few courses which have not yet had a USGA rating will use the SSS and have a temporary 'average' slope rating assigned.
For all rated courses, the SSS is already the assessed Course Rating.
Sorry to be pedantic but I don't see how this will work.

I get the CR vs SSS point - infact our are a maximum of 0.2 different from each other with no rounding difference.

My point is quite simple really - we have 6 course that have been assessed (3 x 9 & 3 X 18 which are combinations of the 9s). In the current CONGU system we only have the 3 X 18s assessed but I don't understand how they are mapped against the new ones. When I put the courses into the WHS portal it doesn't ask me which old definition this relates to so how can it work out how to apply CR & Slope to the old score?

We are just over 3 months away and trying to put education together for our members and I appreciate everyone is struggling in the Covid-19 environment but the lack for clear communication about key milestones / actions is an increasing concern. We have posters - boy do we have posters - but things keep popping up which give me reason to worry about a successful implementation.
 

rulefan

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I get the CR vs SSS point - infact our are a maximum of 0.2 different from each other with no rounding difference.

My point is quite simple really - we have 6 course that have been assessed (3 x 9 & 3 X 18 which are combinations of the 9s). In the current CONGU system we only have the 3 X 18s assessed but I don't understand how they are mapped against the new ones. When I put the courses into the WHS portal it doesn't ask me which old definition this relates to so how can it work out how to apply CR & Slope to the old score?
I'm aftraid I don't know the details. I suggest you ask EG directly.

We are just over 3 months away and trying to put education together for our members and I appreciate everyone is struggling in the Covid-19 environment but the lack for clear communication about key milestones / actions is an increasing concern. We have posters - boy do we have posters - but things keep popping up which give me reason to worry about a successful implementation.
I reckon the trick is not to try to over educate your members. Whether they understand the transition process or not makes no difference. To be frank, they'll get what the system gives them. I wouldn't even bother trying.

You only have to get across the basics.
The difference between an Index which is course/tee independent and a Course Handicap which is tee specific.
Index is transportable around the world.
Handicap varies with tees.
Extra strokes as your handicap goes up (ie how slope works in principle).
Overnight updating.
 
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jim8flog

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Sorry to be pedantic but I don't see how this will work.

I get the CR vs SSS point - infact our are a maximum of 0.2 different from each other with no rounding difference.

My point is quite simple really - we have 6 course that have been assessed (3 x 9 & 3 X 18 which are combinations of the 9s). In the current CONGU system we only have the 3 X 18s assessed but I don't understand how they are mapped against the new ones. When I put the courses into the WHS portal it doesn't ask me which old definition this relates to so how can it work out how to apply CR & Slope to the old score?

We are just over 3 months away and trying to put education together for our members and I appreciate everyone is struggling in the Covid-19 environment but the lack for clear communication about key milestones / actions is an increasing concern. We have posters - boy do we have posters - but things keep popping up which give me reason to worry about a successful implementation.
We have a 9 hole course (as well as the 18) with 3 diiferent teeing area s on each hole (red, yellow and white) on which different combinations of the 9 with different tees are used to provide an 18 hole card for either sex.

All variations of the 9 hole course are generally used to provide 18 holes for either sex all the variations have been given a slope rating in such a way it is easy to understand.

I can understand your problem if this has not been done.
 

rosecott

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Are you implying they will use the WHS methodology to do this? If so how will they map the courses currently used with SSS with the new ones we are loading into the WHS Portal?
I am suffering from a communications hiccup with England Golf and I am struggling to locate the WHS Portal. Can you point me in its direction?
 
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Am I correct in saying that the initial calculation of the Handicap Index mirrors the ongoing system? So in my case, I have 20 relevant qualifying scores from white and yellow tees. Do I calculate the adjusted gross scores to each new course rating (slightly different to SSS), then standardise by getting back to 113. e.g 77 - 71.6 =5.4 . Then 5.4 times 113/123=5.0. Sort the best eight eight and average them?

My Handicapping Chair seems to think something different will happen to produce this magic number but he can't seem to define it!

If I am correct all members should be able to check their intitial Handicap Index.
 
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The gross score as adjusted back to a maximum score per hole of a net double bogey. Therafter the differential can be further adjusted by any CSS difference from SSS. These adjustments for the historical data.

I have heard another phrase used post WHS for a playing condition adjustment. Presumably similar to CSS but perhaps something different?
 

mikejohnchapman

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Am I correct in saying that the initial calculation of the Handicap Index mirrors the ongoing system? So in my case, I have 20 relevant qualifying scores from white and yellow tees. Do I calculate the adjusted gross scores to each new course rating (slightly different to SSS), then standardise by getting back to 113. e.g 77 - 71.6 =5.4 . Then 5.4 times 113/123=5.0. Sort the best eight eight and average them?

My Handicapping Chair seems to think something different will happen to produce this magic number but he can't seem to define it!

If I am correct all members should be able to check their intitial Handicap Index.
But why would they want to? Are they concerned the implementation by England golf will be wrong?

We have been promised an early view of the handicap indexes before implementation which will do for most people I think. The focus will be on those players whoes HI differs dramatically from their current handicap which will mainly be due to lack of posted scores I believe.

Nobody checks to see if CSS has been calculated correctly by the computer (Do they?)
 

rulefan

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The gross score as adjusted back to a maximum score per hole of a net double bogey. Therafter the differential can be further adjusted by any CSS difference from SSS. These adjustments for the historical data.

I have heard another phrase used post WHS for a playing condition adjustment. Presumably similar to CSS but perhaps something different?
Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC)
The statistical calculation that determines if conditions on a day of play differed from normal playing conditions to the extent that they significantly impacted players' performance.
Examples of conditions include:
Course condition, weather conditions and course set-up.
 
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But why would they want to? Are they concerned the implementation by England golf will be wrong?

We have been promised an early view of the handicap indexes before implementation which will do for most people I think. The focus will be on those players whoes HI differs dramatically from their current handicap which will mainly be due to lack of posted scores I believe.

Nobody checks to see if CSS has been calculated correctly by the computer (Do they?)


Yes I am looking forward to seeing the early view and it will do for most people. I have simply been interested to understand how the calculation will work and if it is as I have described it is quite easy to work it out in advance on a spreadsheet. I have already done it for myself and my wife and there are some interesting implications.

That is much easier than calculating the CSS or the new PCC which is an entirely different and more complex thing from calculating the Handicap Index under the new WHS.
 
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jim8flog

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The gross score as adjusted back to a maximum score per hole of a net double bogey. Therafter the differential can be further adjusted by any CSS difference from SSS. These adjustments for the historical data.

I have heard another phrase used post WHS for a playing condition adjustment. Presumably similar to CSS but perhaps something different?
Do you not have access to your handicap history - if yes forget about CSS and nett double bogeys because it is all done for you. Just look at the nett differential figure.

eg Column 18


1596311085961.png

Ongoing, when it starts, I am not sure you will be able to calculate it for your self if you throw in a really good score. An exceptional score resets all the data before before that date and also there is the hard and soft caps to consider. These caps do not let a handicap move too far away from a players demonstrated ability in too short a time.
 
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Do you not have access to your handicap history - if yes forget about CSS and nett double bogeys because it is all done for you. Just look at the nett differential figure.

eg Column 18


View attachment 31836

Ongoing, when it starts, I am not sure you will be able to calculate it for your self if you throw in a really good score. An exceptional score resets all the data before before that date and also there is the hard and soft caps to consider. These caps do not let a handicap move too far away from a players demonstrated ability in too short a time.
Thank you. Yes I have used that Handicap record but basically worked back to get the adjusted gross score and compared it to the new Course Rating rather than the CSS. A difference of 0.4 lower from our White tees. Do you know if the software will do it this way or simply using the net differential?

I take your point about caps and ESR but I confess I am not fully up to speed on these. My days of ESR are probably long gone.
 
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jim8flog

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Thank you. Yes I have used that Handicap record but basically worked back to get the adjusted gross score and compared it to the new Course Rating rather than the CSS. A difference of 0.4 lower from our White tees. Do you know if the software will do it this way or simply using the net differential?

I take your point about caps and ESR but I confess I am not fully up to speed on these. My days of ESR are probably long gone.
When the WHS comes in and you are given an initial Handicap Index it will be based upon the scores held on the CDH system and not your club's ISV system. I am sorry I do not know exactly what information is uploaded to the CDH at this time.

Given that Course Ratings were only done for most clubs during the past year and they are going back the start of 2018 I would expect them to use nett differentials for initial H.I.


I am using nett differential for my personal spreadsheet and to be honest one of the things I have noticed it it takes a fairly big better than handicap score or it will take a run of scores better to significantly change the handicap index when there are 20 scores in the history.

Since returning to playing I have put 6 scores and which have varied quite widely, some low scores from June 2019 got knocked off the record and the H.I. has only moved by 0.2 at most. Mind you the scores that count are only within a 3 shot range. What is also interesting is that the playing handicap has not altered with rounding and the 95% allowance.
 
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When the WHS comes in and you are given an initial Handicap Index it will be based upon the scores held on the CDH system and not your club's ISV system. I am sorry I do not know exactly what information is uploaded to the CDH at this time.

Given that Course Ratings were only done for most clubs during the past year and they are going back the start of 2018 I would expect them to use nett differentials for initial H.I.


I am using nett differential for my personal spreadsheet and to be honest one of the things I have noticed it it takes a fairly big better than handicap score or it will take a run of scores better to significantly change the handicap index when there are 20 scores in the history.

Since returning to playing I have put 6 scores and which have varied quite widely, some low scores from June 2019 got knocked off the record and the H.I. has only moved by 0.2 at most. Mind you the scores that count are only within a 3 shot range. What is also interesting is that the playing handicap has not altered with rounding and the 95% allowance.
I agree it is not clear exactly what data will be used in the transition. Hence my original question. I also have six new scores this year and agree that even though they have generally been average to poor my HI has also not changed significantly. For the time being that makes sense to me. What was alarming was that my HI was coming out at 3.4 with a Course Handicap of 4. That was worrying because my lowest ever handicap under CONGU is 5 which is challenging enough for a 63 year old, never mind reducing it further. At the other end of the scale my wife's Handicap moves up from 21 to a Course Handicap of 23. My conclusion is that the change will generally help higher handicaps and make it even tougher for lower.

Using net differentials rather than Course Ratings makes a very minor difference but can in some circumstances produce an extra shot or reduce it by one dependant on the actual differences.
 
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