What if Bunker Rakes were banned indefinitely?

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The problem with scorecards is that any solution is going to need technology. So as there is no sharing, it would probably need to be a phone app rather than a custom device and so it needs developing, testing, approving by both google and apple, it needs everyone to have a phone up to spec to use it, it needs everyone to understand how to use it, it needs to be quick and simple so as not to cause hold ups....... oh and it has to be free as I cannot see people willingly paying an up front cost or subscription for it (but you could not easily have advertising as it clutters the screen or causes delay whilst the advert is closed). There would also need to be a standard operating system so as it speaks to the overall database of scores. Suddenly does not sound so easy. Not impossible but a very big initial outlay to get the system up and running.

Ideal system would link to the GPS and would simply ask that you input a score for you and the person you are scoring for as you reach the next tee box, just as your GPS switches holes automatically
I don't think it's that difficult. Dozens of apps are released every day. You are making a complete mountain out of very simple technology that has already existed for a decade.

The entire US handicap system is managed via scores being added on a smartphone app.

Scoring apps already exist and I'm sure a company (or national golf unions) would be happy to develop and manage an app and charge clubs a reasonable fee to access it, or possibly give clubs a lower cost option with a bit of advertising. Do clubs currently pay HDiD?
Clubs already buy at least 10,000 scorecards a year, and this would replace scorecards (or at least massively reduce their use).

Yes - people would need smartphones... so what? nearly everyone has one and basic smartphone's aren't that expensive (especially for people with a golf membership) and if you don't have one or get one... guess what, you don't get to play in medals and have a handicap.

As long as clubs have backup scorecards and wifi.
Even if someone's phone runs out of battery, backup plan is they can go home and charge or input score on a terminal (but use of this is massively reduced and now not compulsory).
 
Thread starter #43
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Paper card, marker picks up card (ideally each player keeps a collection in bag) and fills out without the other player touching it. Other player does the same with their card. Each recording both so it tallies. In clubhouse, swap and sign at a designated station and post in the box. Hand sanitiser next to said box so both immediately sanitise hands (a fairly extra measure). Scorecards all left in box for a day/two days (again very cautious given studies), and then secretary just goes about their business as normal. Potentially need two boxes so you can switch between days if multiple comps.

I do think like rakes we are making a mountain out of a molehill on a few of these things. Fully understand doing it now to keep sensible behaviour, ease back into golf, but if cases keep dropping then I don't see why these measures need to be kept in a months time, particularly as we'll be getting close to clubhouse opening.
Thing is the paper card bit is just totally not required.
It's just something that creates extra admin for a club and there is obviously double counting with people submitting their score electronically, as well as via a card.

Does a handicap sec even check every card?
Do they really go through 180 cards to make sure everyone filled 18 scores out and added everything up correctly and signed in the correct boxes?
I'm sure they don't.
They'll check the winners and those getting cash.
 
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When I started playing there were no bunker rakes, you smoothed out the bunker with your club & that was good enough. I don't understand this obsession with having a perfect lie in a bunker. You don't get a perfect lie every time you visit the rough, the rub of the green is part of the game.

There are many more important things to think about.
 

GB72

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I don't think it's that difficult. Dozens of apps are released every day. You are making a complete mountain out of very simple technology that has already existed for a decade.

The entire US handicap system is managed via scores being added on a smartphone app.

Scoring apps already exist and I'm sure a company (or national golf unions) would be happy to develop and manage an app and charge clubs a reasonable fee to access it, or possibly give clubs a lower cost option with a bit of advertising. Do clubs currently pay HDiD?
Clubs already buy at least 10,000 scorecards a year, and this would replace scorecards (or at least massively reduce their use).

Yes - people would need smartphones... so what? nearly everyone has one and basic smartphone's aren't that expensive (especially for people with a golf membership) and if you don't have one or get one... guess what, you don't get to play in medals and have a handicap.

As long as clubs have backup scorecards and wifi.
Even if someone's phone runs out of battery, backup plan is they can go home and charge or input score on a terminal (but use of this is massively reduced and now not compulsory).
To be honest, I am all for it even without the current safety issues, producing all those score cards every year seems such a waste and if anything changes on the course for SI etc, they all go in the bin. I was just looking at it through the eyes of the more reticent golfer. Have to admit though, id not appreciate that the US already operated an online score gathering system for handicaps. The ideal would be to involve the main companies involved in that and open a new revenue stream for them. My main technological hurdle was that these scoring apps would need to all be able to talk to one central database but if that is up and running in the states then all well and good.
 

Lord Tyrion

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I'd like to quote the various lady members I have come across at past and present clubs when grumbles about rough, bunkers etc happen. 'Well don't go in them then'. No, I never found those comments helpful either :mad:

Not using rakes will be long forgotten by next season, it will be this year only. A bold comment but as someone who guessed correctly at a mid May return my statements can clearly be trusted to be accurate ;)

So far I have found ours to be fine, people are using their feet well to brush over and it is working. Saying that, playing golf at the moment is still a novelty so how long the good behaviour will last I don't know.
 
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Thing is the paper card bit is just totally not required.
It's just something that creates extra admin for a club and there is obviously double counting with people submitting their score electronically, as well as via a card.

Does a handicap sec even check every card?
Do they really go through 180 cards to make sure everyone filled 18 scores out and added everything up correctly and signed in the correct boxes?
I'm sure they don't.
They'll check the winners and those getting cash.
Agree, I’d do either or and encourage electronic use. My point being hand sanitiser before and after inputting scores or signing cards removes the risk. A scorecard is not something that gets passed back and forth during a round so quite easy to manage the risk.
 

mikejohnchapman

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I don't think this is all that unrealistic.

At the moment, most people are in the headspace of this is a temporary, one off event, and at some point we'll be back to normal. But potentially COVID19 might be the start and the virus risk to health may always remain and come in waves every few years.

So if bunker rakes were no longer able to be a thing?

Ultimately courses may choose to have fewer bunkers. Those that are there will have not much sand (many of us will be familiar with anyway) and you just play it as it lies.
People flatten things out roughly as they get out of a bunker, but ultimately it's a penalty and sometimes you'll get lucky and sometimes less lucky. Much like a bad bounce, an uneven lie in the fairway or having a gap through the trees etc. These will even out. The better players will find a way etc.

In reality you couldn't / wouldn't have thick fluffy sand that people might leave big thick footprints in.

But for me, not a huge negative. Would speed up play a bit and perhaps remove the obsession we have with bunkers when in reality they aren't all that much of a naturally occurring feature - even on links - and most bunkers we have today look totally unnatural. Courses may move to other green side protection such as grass bunkers, run off areas etc.
Less of a problem with pimple soled golf shoes and a minimal amount of effort to leave a decent surface in the sand.

Someone would need to have a word with the deer at our place as they never repair their hoof prints despite notices telling them to do so.
 

IanM

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I've seen some little plastic rake heads that attach to the grip of a club....... that'll be the outcome if banned long term.

And the gag about some golfers saying "wots a rake?" has already be done!
 

Robster59

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Thing is the paper card bit is just totally not required.
It's just something that creates extra admin for a club and there is obviously double counting with people submitting their score electronically, as well as via a card.

Does a handicap sec even check every card?
Do they really go through 180 cards to make sure everyone filled 18 scores out and added everything up correctly and signed in the correct boxes?
I'm sure they don't.
They'll check the winners and those getting cash.
When I was on handicap I counted all the cards, checked they were signed and in. You may only validate the scores on the top cards but you can quickly scan the cards to see if anything looks a little odd.
 

HomerJSimpson

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When I was on handicap I counted all the cards, checked they were signed and in. You may only validate the scores on the top cards but you can quickly scan the cards to see if anything looks a little odd.
I thought handicap secretary's were suppose to count the number of cards entered vs the number of entries to ensure any NR's and also all the housekeeping like signing. I know of guys that would have won that have DQ'd (and I lost out on 2nd place and cash by doing that).

As for bunkers, wasn't it someone at the very top of the game like Nicklaus that said they were hazards and so would prefer them to go back to an unraked state especially in the pro game? At the moment I feel we are only allowed to play on trust and that trust is we do everything to minimise contamination and infection risk and clearly rakes. PSI terminals, card handling etc all come into that. Whether the risk is negligible or not there is still a risk. Lets simply keep it as is while we're playing social golf and either agree to move it or play as it lies. Does it matter at the moment?
 

Traminator

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If I was carrying I wouldn't want to be carrying one of those little rakes around, covered in wet sand. Where do you put it, sticking out the side pocket with sand going everywhere?

Size 11 right foot and club head 👍
 

HankMarvin

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I don't think this is all that unrealistic.

At the moment, most people are in the headspace of this is a temporary, one off event, and at some point we'll be back to normal. But potentially COVID19 might be the start and the virus risk to health may always remain and come in waves every few years.

So if bunker rakes were no longer able to be a thing?

Ultimately courses may choose to have fewer bunkers. Those that are there will have not much sand (many of us will be familiar with anyway) and you just play it as it lies.
People flatten things out roughly as they get out of a bunker, but ultimately it's a penalty and sometimes you'll get lucky and sometimes less lucky. Much like a bad bounce, an uneven lie in the fairway or having a gap through the trees etc. These will even out. The better players will find a way etc.

In reality you couldn't / wouldn't have thick fluffy sand that people might leave big thick footprints in.

But for me, not a huge negative. Would speed up play a bit and perhaps remove the obsession we have with bunkers when in reality they aren't all that much of a naturally occurring feature - even on links - and most bunkers we have today look totally unnatural. Courses may move to other green side protection such as grass bunkers, run off areas etc.
Wow......

Is this post for real, I mean the flag stick will be next or maybe the ball washer.........
 

Slab

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Ultimately golf is a recreation. Shops are not. Hence it is reasonable that golf goes further to dispense with unnecessary contamination risks.

If we lived in this permanent state of flirting between stages of green, amber and red... rakes would be something that could realistically be done away with.

Personally would want to avoid the personal rake being a requirement. It's something else to faff with and will obviously take a lot longer to rake as well with a smaller tool.

I'd favour preferred lies over a personal rake, but would much rather just have 'play it as it lies' for simplicity (which I guess would require no official rule changes).

Things like shoe cleaners, touching flags, ball cleaners, using the clubhouse, bar, lockers etc. are all not 100% essential if someone didn't want to touch them, they wouldn't have to and could still play. And we MUST be able to come up with a workable way of submitting scores that avoids using a central touch screen (i.e. an app) and the playing partner verifying the score (I guess would require a rule change).

If this does develop into permanent risk situation, we could move to a place where people assess their own risk and people in vulnerable groups might decide to take fewer risks in terms of contacting other people, travelling, going to busy places etc. so it would be good if golf could work effectively to ensure people can play with minimal or no risk rather than just assume that things will go back to normal.
I get its a forum and we can spitball about anything related but were society really at the stage of 'what if this virus' that you describe actually became reality. Then the humble bunker rake is not really going to be an issue. We wont be playing golf, so no need to worry about a rake

The initial solution of removing them is quite right because we've seen how many idiots are out there who'd simply stand and lick the handle etc, but that's all it is a very short term fix until we put in place a better plan. Removing them will not be the medium to longer term solution. We will learn how to function outdoors while still minimising the risks without simply banning/removing this, that and the next thing

Look how inventive folks have been with solutions for touching the hole/ball in just a few weeks



download.jpg
 
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Slab

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I suppose that golf has the advantage that pretty much everything that you touch can be brought with you be it a portable rake, stuff to clean your golf ball during a round, a brush to get the mud off your shoes etc. Only problem is that it would not be long before big manufacturers picked up on this and started charging three times as much just by calling it a golf accessory :)

With regards the comparison to trolleys at supermarkets, the ones near me have people wiping them down before passing them to the next customer but I cannot see clubs having rake monitors.

Personally, I like the idea of playing it as it lies and making bunkers more of a hazard. The only issue there is that it benefits earlier groups out in competitions if the bunker is raked every morning before the first tee time.
Me neither... but then I don't see a need for them either

Providing I take precautionary steps during & after using a bunker rake to clean my hands etc, it matters not a jot what the walloper in front of me did with it when they used it
 

Slab

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I thought handicap secretary's were suppose to count the number of cards entered vs the number of entries to ensure any NR's and also all the housekeeping like signing. I know of guys that would have won that have DQ'd (and I lost out on 2nd place and cash by doing that).

As for bunkers, wasn't it someone at the very top of the game like Nicklaus that said they were hazards and so would prefer them to go back to an unraked state especially in the pro game? At the moment I feel we are only allowed to play on trust and that trust is we do everything to minimise contamination and infection risk and clearly rakes. PSI terminals, card handling etc all come into that. Whether the risk is negligible or not there is still a risk. Lets simply keep it as is while we're playing social golf and either agree to move it or play as it lies. Does it matter at the moment?
Seen this kind of thing mentioned before. Does anyone know (if its true) was it said when he was 15yrs old, 30 or 55?

I could easily see my opinion on the matter changing as a grew-up, succeeded and retired
 

rulefan

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The ideal would be to involve the main companies involved in that and open a new revenue stream for them. My main technological hurdle was that these scoring apps would need to all be able to talk to one central database but if that is up and running in the states then all well and good.
These companies (including Scottish Golf I believe) are already well on the way developing such systems. Australia, New Zealand add large parts of the rest of the world are using them.
 

Traminator

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Correctly completed and signed cards are an integral part of our competitions.

Player completes card, it's countersigned, card goes in the box, scores entered into terminal and everyone goes off to sort their gear out, wash hands etc. You don't even need to touch a card to squiggle on it.

Person processing the results checks the relevant cards the next day (with gloves on if they wish) , produces results sheet, ditches optional gloves and washes hands 👐.

Cards are burnt at the ceremonial stake.

Where's the problem?
 
Thread starter #60
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I get its a forum and we can spitball about anything related but were society really at the stage of 'what if this virus' that you describe actually became reality. Then the humble bunker rake is not really going to be an issue. We wont be playing golf, so no need to worry about a rake

The initial solution of removing them is quite right because we've seen how many idiots are out there who'd simply stand and lick the handle etc, but that's all it is a very short term fix until we put in place a better plan. Removing them will not be the medium to longer term solution. We will learn how to function outdoors while still minimising the risks without simply banning/removing this, that and the next thing

Look how inventive folks have been with solutions for touching the hole/ball in just a few weeks



View attachment 30766
Inventive solution indeed, but I think you underestimate the human races ability to adapt and survive.
If this does become something that is long term or comes in waves every few years, people will not just give up and wait for death. People will still want to play golf, meet friends and colleagues, go shopping, travel etc. and people will find a way to make these things happen with no or minimal risk to health.
 
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