Universal Credit

drdel

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This thread is just repeating.

IMO the OP has stopped listening and is now gone into denial.

Any sums recieved for 'work done is income, business operating costs are deductible, that is all that concerns the HMRC and others.

Over a year ago I warned the entertainment game is fickle and strewn with bankrupt businesses: many by design. I strongly advised over a year ago that "the first loss is the best loss" : the OP's son obviously does not have capital reserves to survive in the sector where late payment is the norm, nepotism and internships are prevalent.

I have a few friends who are agents and promoters in this game. The harsh reality is he'd need to have enough capital fo finance himself for at least a year and be prepared for 'dry' spells of 4 or 5 months.

Move on and do it as a hobby.
 
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This thread is just repeating.

IMO the OP has stopped listening and is now gone into denial.

Any sums recieved for 'work done is income, business operating costs are deductible, that is all that concerns the HMRC and others.

Over a year ago I warned the entertainment game is fickle and strewn with bankrupt businesses: many by design. I strongly advised over a year ago that "the first loss is the best loss" : the OP's son obviously does not have capital reserves to survive in the sector where late payment is the norm, nepotism and internships are prevalent.

I have a few friends who are agents and promoters in this game. The harsh reality is he'd need to have enough capital fo finance himself for at least a year and be prepared for 'dry' spells of 4 or 5 months.

Move on and do it as a hobby.
Which is what he is doing at the moment as he looks for a new career, but you'll note that that is not what my OP was about. It was about how one very specific UC assessment rule would impact individuals in the unprecedented and unforeseen circumstances of the lockdown.

And just as it happens...a report out today...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53599763
 
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Slab

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You are joking...savings...you do know that a huge number of people don't have £100 to their name at the end of every month. This may be from 2016 but I doubt things are much different today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37504449

And yes - the self-employed expect some uncertainly about when money is received. 1] My point is that in the circumstances of the lockdown and so many having to claim UC - the UC system might have been relexed to recognise the issue of the self-employed and the timing of their last income. Maybe considered it as savings...

My point is not about the level of UC. It is not about the looking for work, or indeed the support that those on UC get in identifying training and opportunities. It's not about any of these - or indeed anything to do with UC in normal times. 2] It's simply about the final income payment for work prior to registering for UC as an individual's job goes down the plughole - especially in the cliff-edge circumstances of the lockdown. That's all.
1] If as you say your son never considered/used any of his previous self employed earnings as savings why should the UC calculation consider the last one as savings?
2] Same thing; By your own admission All his previous income/payments went down the plughole too, why change the UC system for this last bit of income?

Your solution is way way bigger than the problem
 
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1] If as you say your son never considered/used any of his previous self employed earnings as savings why should the UC calculation consider the last one as savings?
2] Same thing; By your own admission All his previous income/payments went down the plughole too, why change the UC system for this last bit of income?

Your solution is way way bigger than the problem
For those with little or no savings to fall back on it would have provided them with the funds to bridge the 5weeks to the first UC payment. That's all. Those with £6k savings would not have that same issue to deal with.
 

Slab

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For those with little or no savings to fall back on it would have provided them with the funds to bridge the 5weeks to the first UC payment. That's all. Those with £6k savings would not have that same issue to deal with.
I think you're just too close and can't see this impartially. Income is not savings, you cant ask them to say 'don't worry about it we'll just call it savings cos there's a pandemic' while it might sounds sensible for your son's specific predicament it is not a practical process change

The welfare system is for reduced/no income, no part of that system can ever be set up to ignore income received after a claim is made or give that income another name... and still get unchanged welfare
 

Hobbit

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For those with little or no savings to fall back on it would have provided them with the funds to bridge the 5weeks to the first UC payment. That's all. Those with £6k savings would not have that same issue to deal with.
Going off at a tangent, and perhaps alluding to something you posted in a previous thread, if he had no savings who was going to pay his self-employed tax bill at year end? You, again?
 

3offTheTee

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Find it difficult to believe the thread is still rumbling on.

1. There is an old saying SILH and apologies as I know your beliefs, “The Lord helps those who help themselves”! Relevant here.
2. Have you responded to my post #191?
 
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I have no experience in the benefit system so I might be wrong.

I can see his point, his lad has earnt his wages, paid the correct amount of tax on them just not received the payment when it was due which is way out of his control.

It's not right he should lose out imo but cannot expect the UC system to change the rules just to suit him.

On another point, Do people really expect someone to throw away a career at the first sign of adversity after putting so many years into it?
Don't come in here being all reasonable, the forum is having an SILH pile on with the added fun of digging his son out.
 
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Going off at a tangent, and perhaps alluding to something you posted in a previous thread, if he had no savings who was going to pay his self-employed tax bill at year end? You, again?
Just on this tangent :) He had his guaranteed employed work and self-employed he had solid bookings supporting touring bands and acts from March to July - with much of the rest of the year pencilled-in. He would have easily had sufficient to pay his tax bill for 2019-2020 - which will not be much in any case. He'd paid his tax bill for 2018-2019.
 
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Find it difficult to believe the thread is still rumbling on.

1. There is an old saying SILH and apologies as I know your beliefs, “The Lord helps those who help themselves”! Relevant here.
2. Have you responded to my post #191?
1. Indeed - why he is helping himself...currently sorting out work and other sources of income.
2. Your questions have got nothing to do with my original post. However - he knows he must get a job in August, as he is desperate to get off UC.

And I will note - as I have previously noted but seemingly ignored. Given his level of earnings, my lad could have claimed UC to top up his earnings for at least the three years leading up to March of this year, but he did not do so as he did not want to have any dependency on the state - unlike many who are more than happy to claim every benefit or tax deductible allowance that they are due. So where there is cynicism or criticism on here, perhaps it should be directed at them.
 

Wolf

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Anyone going on to UC can apply for funds earlier than the 5 weeks you quoted.
Indeed they can but its one of the huge flaws in the system. They get granted the funds early and usually can have up to the maximum amount of their claim., however it screws them over if they do it, because its not an advance of UC funds, its classified as a budgeting loan so when they start getting their actual UC payments 5 weeks later a proportionate amount is deducted from it to repay the loan, which often leaves many people short and struggling until the next payment so another loan is needed and more gets deducted again next time. Its an absolute vicious circle for anyone that takes the option to do that and will often end up owing a debt more back to government in loans than they can afford to pay back.

This is where it needs addressing to help people get access tother own funds faster without needing the budgeting loans which end up crippling them and prevents them being able to survive.
 
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Foxholer

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Indeed they can but its one of the huge flaws in the system. They get granted the funds early and usually can have up to the maximum amount of their claim., however it screws them over if they do it, because its not an advance of UC funds, its classified as a budgeting loan so when they start getting their actual UC payments 5 weeks later a proportionate amount is deducted from it to repay the loan, which often leaves many people short and struggling until the next payment so another loan is needed and more gets deducted again next time. Its an absolute vicious circle for anyone that takes the option to do that and will often end up owing a debt more back to government in loans than they can afford to pay back.

This is where it needs addressing to help people get access tother own funds faster without needing the budgeting loans which end up crippling them and prevents them being able to survive.
I don't quite understand the full ramifications of your post, but agree with its gist. While I'm inclined to believe it's actually better than what it replaced, I believe there's a certain amount of 'tweaking' that would make it 'fairer'. I know a couple of, quite frugal, UC claimants who have ended up having to borrow money to pay their 'leccy because of 'deductions' they neither understood nor (obviously) had 'budgeted' for!
 

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Indeed they can but its one of the huge flaws in the system. They get granted the funds early and usually can have up to the maximum amount of their claim., however it screws them over if they do it, because its not an advance of UC funds, its classified as a budgeting loan so when they start getting their actual UC payments 5 weeks later a proportionate amount is deducted from it to repay the loan, which often leaves many people short and struggling until the next payment so another loan is needed and more gets deducted again next time. Its an absolute vicious circle for anyone that takes the option to do that and will often end up owinga debt more back to government in loans than they can afford to pay back.

This is where it needs addressing to help people get access tother own funds faster without needing yhr budgeting loans which end up crippling them and prevents them being able to survive.
I honestly thought the loan could be repaid over a period of time and not as a one of lump sum. I also think that the 5 weeks was being reduced due to the increase staffing that was put in place.
 

Old Skier

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I don't quite understand the full ramifications of your post, but agree with its gist. While I'm inclined to believe it's actually better than what it replaced, I believe there's a certain amount of 'tweaking' that would make it 'fairer'. I know a couple of, quite frugal, UC claimants who have ended up having to borrow money to pay their 'leccy because of 'deductions' they neither understood nor (obviously) had 'budgeted' for!
The area of priority debts not getting paid is of great concern at the moment within the charity sector and one of the more annoying things that is not commonly known is that the utilities have a specific organisation set up to assist and in some cases write off some debts.
 

Wolf

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I don't quite understand the full ramifications of your post, but agree with its gist. While I'm inclined to believe it's actually better than what it replaced, I believe there's a certain amount of 'tweaking' that would make it 'fairer'. I know a couple of, quite frugal, UC claimants who have ended up having to borrow money to pay their 'leccy because of 'deductions' they neither understood nor (obviously) had 'budgeted' for!
Basically you don't get an advance you get a loan which is paid back out of your monthly UC Benefit, but its quite a chunk they take so leaves people short and end up borrowing more to replace what they lost and means losing more next time. Its a vicious cycle of creating government owed debt but using your benefits asnthe collateral to borrow against. A very odd way of doing it.

It is definitely an improvement on the old JSA system but it still has a lot of ironing out needed.

I honestly thought the loan could be repaid over a period of time and not as a one of lump sum. I also think that the 5 weeks was being reduced due to the increase staffing that was put in place.
It is paid back over a period of time but that period is from every subsequent benefit payment you get and its quite a chunk for example when I unfortunately had to claim due to redundancy I was entitled to the princely sum of £345 a month, but if i wanted a budgeting loan of the same amount to cover me for 5 weeks whilst waiting for UC it was worked out I would have had to sacrifice £65 a month out of that £345 until paid off, leaving me with £280 per month which would have had to cover all my outgoings, food etc. Fortunately I didn't take the option or make it as far as the 1st payment as I got back into work. But sacrificing £65 a month into the ether is a lot when you have nothing coming in and is how it ends up with people requiring mkresnd more budgeting loans until their benefit is pretty much 50% of their entitlement and food banks get utilised just to survive.
 

Foxholer

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Basically you don't get an advance you get a loan which is paid back out of your monthly UC Benefit, but its quite a chunk they take so leaves people short and end up borrowing more to replace what they lost and means losing more next time. Its a vicious cycle of creating government owed debt but using your benefits asnthe collateral to borrow against. A very odd way of doing it.

It is definitely an improvement on the old JSA system but it still has a lot of ironing out needed.


It is paid back over a period of time but that period is from every subsequent benefit payment you get and its quite a chunk for example when I unfortunately had to claim due to redundancy I was entitled to the princely sum of £345 a month, but if i wanted a budgeting loan of the same amount to cover me for 5 weeks whilst waiting for UC it was worked out I would have had to sacrifice £65 a month out of that £345 until paid off, leaving me with £280 per month which would have had to cover all my outgoings, food etc. Fortunately I didn't take the option or make it as far as the 1st payment as I got back into work. But sacrificing £65 a month into the ether is a lot when you have nothing coming in and is how it ends up with people requiring mkresnd more budgeting loans until their benefit is pretty much 50% of their entitlement and food banks get utilised just to survive.
You are not telling me anything I didn't already know!
I've occasionally 'temporarily supported' a couple of folk who have been in that situation, for 1 reason or another - never really 'their fault'; it's simply 'the system'!
 

Wolf

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You are not telling me anything I didn't already know!
I've occasionally 'temporarily supported' a couple of folk who have been in that situation, for 1 reason or another - never really 'their fault'; it's simply 'the system'!
I don't really buy that line with people though, system is flawed and the loan side is one of those flaws, but the biggest flaw with it is the people who believe its always the fault of the system. Nobody is forced into a budgeting loan and plenty believe they should get more and forget the fact it is only a safety net its not a replacement of income to be relied on and live comfortably off.
People need to ensure they listen properly to the guidelines and understand what they're signing or applying for, its not the systems fault they're out of work and it's not the system responsible for getting them back in work or giving them the life they're accustomed to. People need to do that themselves and that's the biggest flaw with any benefit systems and why there will always be those that think their situation is different and its the system punishing them the OP being a good example of that.
 

Foxholer

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I don't really buy that line with people though, system is flawed and the loan side is one of those flaws, but the biggest flaw with it is the people who believe its always the fault of the system. Nobody is forced into a budgeting loan and plenty believe they should get more and forget the fact it is only a safety net its not a replacement of income to be relied on and live comfortably off.
People need to ensure they listen properly to the guidelines and understand what they're signing or applying for, its not the systems fault they're out of work and it's not the system responsible for getting them back in work or giving them the life they're accustomed to. People need to do that themselves and that's the biggest flaw with any benefit systems and why there will always be those that think their situation is different and its the system punishing them the OP being a good example of that.
That would be fine if the 'victims' were in a position to take alternative action. Unfortunately, for precisely the reason they are on UC, they are not! And if they can't find some sort of benefactor, albeit/even a temporary one, they are truly in deep doodoo!
 

Wolf

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That would be fine if the 'victims' were in a position to take alternative action. Unfortunately, for precisely the reason they are on UC, they are not! And if they can't find some sort of benefactor, albeit/even a temporary one, they are truly in deep doodoo!
In that case then they're destined to always suffer at hands of the system. Hopefully they get an upturn in their futures at some point as I feel for any genuine cases such as those in this case where there isn't an alternative to seek better income
 
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