Random irritations of the day......

User20205

Money List Winner
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
5,967
Location
Dorset
The consistent thing with Hitchens is that he never allows ignorance to get in the way of an opinion.
He is like a dog with a bone.....but up until recently he’s been the only voice I could see offering another opinion, but he doesn’t offer any solution. He’s also in a no win situation, if he’s wrong and this goes bad he looks like an idiot,if he’s right it’s because of the govts stringent measures.
I just find the opposing view some light relief vs the ‘ go outside & we’ll all die’ narrative
 

Hobbit

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
15,284
Location
Espana
As you are answering both posts I’ll answer my post first.

Possibly the biggest crisis we are facing as a Nation since WW2, I don’t care who’s in power or what stocks are in the cupboard, my only point is that the Government of the day should be providing the money for all stocks off PPE.

I fully understand the logistics of getting said supplies, pipeline times etc, but the funding should not be coming from donations, it should be a blank cheque from the Government.

As for the political angle, Stu’s correct imo, it has been unfunded for the last 10yrs and I don’t believe he said it was any better under Labour or Blair etc.

The problem is the here and now, the tories have the purse strings so have to take responsibility, and pointing of fingers can, imo, wait until we are out of this crisis.
I agree, the funding shouldn't need to come from the public, and I honestly believe that if a Trust issued a PO number for PPE it would be paid - legally, it has to be paid. The public see stories of shortages and believe its a financial issue and someone starts a crowd funding page. Great, no problem with that but it won't make any difference to the shortage or whether or not a PO number would be 'honoured.'

And from a Duty of Care perspective the Trust has no choice but to order in the PPE. Its cheaper to have the PPE than it is to fight the legal battles with the families of staff.

Stu is correct in that its been underfunded for the last 10 years. The Tories have had 10 years to put right what Labour didn't do. But its the putting a 10 year timeline on it that makes it political. Why not say 15 years or 20 years. The crisis has been here weeks, not 10 years.
 

Stuart_C

Loud & Wide
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
10,205
Location
Liverpool
I doubt very much any hospital was carrying enough PPE for a crisis like this. First of all, most ward store rooms just don't have the room for it. Yes there'll be boxes of all sorts of things but nowhere near enough for a major crisis. If a Trust needs PPE it raises and Order Number for a supplier - the process is that simple. I think the shortage is more to do with demand being over and above its usual usage. I do know my last employer is struggling to get enough PPE off the production lines.

As for "its been underfunded for the last 10 years..." Do we really have to do the politics thing again? I started work in the NHS under Labour, and all my NHS years were under Labour. It was seriously underfunded then. My last year in the NHS was a Tony Blair year. The Trust was £48m in debt, and 99% of Trusts were running similar levels of debt - during the economy's (Blair's) boom years.

A lot of the equipment I decommissioned had originally been bought via charitable donations, and the same goes for commissioning of new equipment, both then and now. If you think the NHS under Labour, 10-15-20 years ago, was any better you're being naive. Believe me, it most definitely wasn't.
My original point stands as it's a fact it's been underfunded in the last 10yrs or so. You may be right for previous decades, still doesnt makemy point wrong. Nothing political in my point at all.

As for being naive, I dont remember seeing/hearing how the NHS was at crisis point, generally, no beds,waiting in corridors, not enough ambulances etc pre 2010.

Obviously this is an unprecedented issue, no hospital was prepared for this.
 

Stuart_C

Loud & Wide
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
10,205
Location
Liverpool
I agree, the funding shouldn't need to come from the public, and I honestly believe that if a Trust issued a PO number for PPE it would be paid - legally, it has to be paid. The public see stories of shortages and believe its a financial issue and someone starts a crowd funding page. Great, no problem with that but it won't make any difference to the shortage or whether or not a PO number would be 'honoured.'

And from a Duty of Care perspective the Trust has no choice but to order in the PPE. Its cheaper to have the PPE than it is to fight the legal battles with the families of staff.

Stu is correct in that its been underfunded for the last 10 years. The Tories have had 10 years to put right what Labour didn't do. But its the putting a 10 year timeline on it that makes it political. Why not say 15 years or 20 years. The crisis has been here weeks, not 10 years.
I put 10yrs or so. Meaning more than 10yrs.
 

Swinglowandslow

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Messages
1,283
He is like a dog with a bone.....but up until recently he’s been the only voice I could see offering another opinion, but he doesn’t offer any solution. He’s also in a no win situation, if he’s wrong and this goes bad he looks like an idiot,if he’s right it’s because of the govts stringent measures.
I just find the opposing view some light relief vs the ‘ go outside & we’ll all die’ narrative
There is no ' go outside and we'll all die' narrative. The government ( sensible ) view is that if we "do all go outside ...etc" enough of us will get seriously ill to the point where the NHS ability to cope will collapse.
Hitchens and his ilk seem incapable of grasping that, as do a lot of the population at present.
 

Hobbit

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
15,284
Location
Espana
As for being naive, I dont remember seeing/hearing how the NHS was at crisis point, generally, no beds,waiting in corridors, not enough ambulances etc pre 2010.
I could give you chapter and verse about the changes on Teesside. Closure of hospitals, and depts. being moved to other hospitals, some of them over 20 miles away. Of the media and community campaigns over it, and the loss of several hundred beds. And the bed blocking, especially during winter. All pre-2010, and its not changed in the slightest. Is there any point to it?

I'm not defending the Tories, far from it, and I'm not defending Labour either. When it comes to quality healthcare, free at the point of delivery, there is only one answer. A lot more money. I don't care who is in power where that's concerned.
 

User20205

Money List Winner
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
5,967
Location
Dorset
There is no ' go outside and we'll all die' narrative. The government ( sensible ) view is that if we "do all go outside ...etc" enough of us will get seriously ill to the point where the NHS ability to cope will collapse.
Hitchens and his ilk seem incapable of grasping that, as do a lot of the population at present.
some not all of what he says calls the science behind the strategy into question that’s all. I’m not saying he’s correct, but some of the arguments are persuasive.
 

Orikoru

Tour Winner
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
11,844
Location
Watford
Internet connection seems to have dropped off a bloody cliff this weekend. Wondering if all the Plusnet employees are now off on isolation. Are internet providers key workers?? They must be..
 

Beezerk

Money List Winner
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
8,128
Location
Gateshead, Tyne & Wear
Crowdfunding to get NHS Staff PPE! way, way more than just a random irritation!
Is it at the request of the NHS or is it a bunch of people who've decided to start a crowd funding page because they've read there's a shortage?
My point is, as has already been mentioned, the shortage is probably due to how quickly goods have been required at such short notice. Without sounding like LPL :LOL: do you have proof that the NHS cannot afford the PPE? Or is it just a matter of putting two and two together and coming up with "the NHS is skint, must be the Tories fault"?
 

pauljames87

Journeyman Pro
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
7,058
Location
Havering
Internet connection seems to have dropped off a bloody cliff this weekend. Wondering if all the Plusnet employees are now off on isolation. Are internet providers key workers?? They must be..
My friends husband is a contractor for BT and they have been deemed key workers during this. The network can't go down because the country would grind to a halt
 

User20205

Money List Winner
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
5,967
Location
Dorset
And what scientific background, qualification and experience is he calling on to question the experts of the world?
Other experts. Just go & read it.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think

Problem being, as with brexit there’s always an expert to tell you what you want to hear.

I don’t think there’s any harm in trying to get a fuller understanding of the issue. My real problem isn’t with the lockdown, I’m fully supportive in giving the NHS the best chance to combat this, but it’s with the acceptance of one scientific viewpoint and probably more importantly the misuse of any powers this gives
 

drdel

Tour Rookie
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
3,750
NHS is always going to be behind the curve in funding. Health solutions are becoming more sophisticated and costly because we cure the simple things quicker: the population has risen as have their expectations."

Blank cheques" given out by Government are paid by taxpayers; let's hope people are as magnanimous in future years when taxes rise.
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
5,213
Location
Four miles too far!
He is like a dog with a bone.....but up until recently he’s been the only voice I could see offering another opinion, but he doesn’t offer any solution. He’s also in a no win situation, if he’s wrong and this goes bad he looks like an idiot,if he’s right it’s because of the govts stringent measures.
I just find the opposing view some light relief vs the ‘ go outside & we’ll all die’ narrative
I can appreciate that.

It's just Hitchens that I find particularly annoying although I do struggle to find any common ground with those who view the Govt's actions as an attack on civil liberties.

That would be entirely contrary to Johnson's (and Cummins) core philosophy.
 

pauldj42

Money List Winner
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Messages
14,153
Location
Seaham
Is it at the request of the NHS or is it a bunch of people who've decided to start a crowd funding page because they've read there's a shortage?
My point is, as has already been mentioned, the shortage is probably due to how quickly goods have been required at such short notice. Without sounding like LPL :LOL: do you have proof that the NHS cannot afford the PPE? Or is it just a matter of putting two and two together and coming up with "the NHS is skint, must be the Tories fault"?
Were has anyone mentioned tories and blame?

The NHS is short of PPE, Doctors have started a crowdfunding page:

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/masks4nhsheroes

No matter how good their intention is, it’s a disgrace imo.

Seriously mate, try and keep the politics out of it. I’ve said time and time again NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR POLITICS.

Plus I’m sure you’re quite capable of doing your own research rather than trying to call me out on it.
 
Last edited:

pauldj42

Money List Winner
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Messages
14,153
Location
Seaham
NHS is always going to be behind the curve in funding. Health solutions are becoming more sophisticated and costly because we cure the simple things quicker: the population has risen as have their expectations."

Blank cheques" given out by Government are paid by taxpayers; let's hope people are as magnanimous in future years when taxes rise.
Blank cheques (as I mentioned them) should be their when the health of the nation and possibly the biggest threat this Country has faced since WW2.

The people at the coal face should be able to face this threat without worry, I’m not suggesting a “blank cheque” free for all, and for what it’s worth I’d be more than happy for a rise in taxes if it was going straight to the NHS.
 
Top