Racism

GB72

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Just out of curiosity, are you a white middle aged middle class male? Because if not you're not welcome here ;)
The worst I hear is casual racism / sexism / ageism in the form of "jokes" in email which are occassionally forwarded by members (never by the club).

Usually dismissed but I have asked the person forwarding some of them not to include me on their distribution list due to the content and was told I have no sense of humour (which may be true).

I have never heard or observed overt rasism at any club I have been a member of (or visited) - I hope I would have the guts to call it out if I did.
I think that this is what I meant by my earlier comments about racism at my former club. It is what come class as 'casual', inappropriate jokes and use of inappropriate terms rather than outright vitriol and hatred. As stated above, those same people also apply 'casual' sexism, ageism and pretty much any other sort of -ism you care to mention. Most are from a generation like mine where, sadly and shockingly, these things were seen as perfectly acceptable. Many people have realised that over the years and have evolved, sadly quite a number have not.
 
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One of our major and most high profile flagship government-funded clients put out a tender for the services contract for which we were the incumbent. We had something like 600 skilled UK staff employed on the account. The client's budget for new contract to deliver the services we had been supplying had been slashed. My company was adamant that we had to keep the client - and the only way that we could compete was by near-shoring (to Poland and Romania) and offshoring (to India and the Philippines) most of the jobs. There are now maybe 100 UK employees working on the account. Many not required were redeployed in the company, but many lost their jobs.

I was impacted as I worked on the account but no longer do - effectively I lost my 'job'. But I was fortunate in that I was redeployed to another account and so was not bothered about the change once I got my head round the switch.

But if I had actually been made redundant? Whose 'fault' would I have thought that that was? My company management? The client? The government? The electorate? Where do you stop with a 'blame game'. In truth the funding cut, and impact of the contract budget, was inevitable for a variety of reasons, and what happened subsequently is just what it is.

However I can say for 100% certainly that I would not have blamed my Polish, Romanian, Indian and Philippine colleagues. Tough times likely to be getting tougher, and I fear quite likely to see more jobs disappearing out of the country as our jobs went.
 
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Four miles too far!
I get what you are saying but it's not about who made the outsourcing decision. The point is the difficulty I now have trying to like someone who's purpose in life is to dramtically change my lifestyle ie. put me on the dole.
But, to me at least, your feelings should surely be directed towards whoever has made the decision to offshore the jobs.

After all if the Indian authorities had refused would not the company have just looked elsewhere?
 

drive4show

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I think that this is what I meant by my earlier comments about racism at my former club. It is what come class as 'casual', inappropriate jokes and use of inappropriate terms rather than outright vitriol and hatred. As stated above, those same people also apply 'casual' sexism, ageism and pretty much any other sort of -ism you care to mention. Most are from a generation like mine where, sadly and shockingly, these things were seen as perfectly acceptable. Many people have realised that over the years and have evolved, sadly quite a number have not.
And is my comment above any worse than the comments you hear every day about Scots being tightfisted or the Irish being thick?
 

drive4show

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But, to me at least, your feelings should surely be directed towards whoever has made the decision to offshore the jobs.

After all if the Indian authorities had refused would not the company have just looked elsewhere?
If you read the post of mine that you have quoted the answer is in there for you.
 

DRW

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a few years ago, prince harry was on the front pages of every newspaper for using the word paki , it was said in a joking way about one of his army friends.
we all know that harry's wife is mixed race, so his use of the word cant be considered racist.
It is racist, this is a forum owned by a commercial company, who would not wish to be associated with such terms.

Put plainly its offensive to read and is racist.
 

pauldj42

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a few years ago, prince harry was on the front pages of every newspaper for using the word paki , it was said in a joking way about one of his army friends.
we all know that harry's wife is mixed race, so his use of the word cant be considered racist.
Or Harry was educated on the term, stopped using it and then met his wife a long time afterwards!
 

clubchamp98

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That's a good point about scousers. I have to admit football "banter" has meant that I too have been guilty of racism towards Liverpudlians even though I have many friends who are from merseyside and lived all my life 30 minutes away.
I don’t think Scouser is a race!
But we give as good as we get , so we forgive you.
 

KenL

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a few years ago, prince harry was on the front pages of every newspaper for using the word paki , it was said in a joking way about one of his army friends.
we all know that harry's wife is mixed race, so his use of the word cant be considered racist.
Not condoning the use of the word as I would never use it.

Did he use the word when he was in the military? Seems there may be a different set of rules in there!
 

Diamond

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I don’t think Scouser is a race!
But we give as good as we get , so we forgive you.
Aye, that you do. I'm often down south with work and I get "are you from Liverpool comment" which I flatly deny, then they say oh right 20 miles away...I quickly say yeah 20 miles from Manchester as well. We are a tribal nation aren't we.
 

PhilTheFragger

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a few years ago, prince harry was on the front pages of every newspaper for using the word paki , it was said in a joking way about one of his army friends.
we all know that harry's wife is mixed race, so his use of the word cant be considered racist.
Seve you are on a loser here, how about you accept that and stop digging yourself a super massive black hole 👍
 

Orikoru

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a few years ago, prince harry was on the front pages of every newspaper for using the word paki , it was said in a joking way about one of his army friends.
we all know that harry's wife is mixed race, so his use of the word cant be considered racist.
If you assume that someone would only be racist against all races yeah, but that's not always the case. I'm sure he was educated on his use of that word after the incident. Racism doesn't always means actively victimising a race, it can just be poor education over abusive language, such as your example.
 
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The whole racism debate is a difficult one for me right now. I am not racist and never have been but last year my job was outsourced to an Indian company. They have sent dozens of people over here to learn our jobs then make us redundant and move the jobs back to India. I don't like the people but it's not because they are a different race to me, it's because they have come to take my livelihood away. They are also not the brightest at what they do and I find that very frustrating. The lad that I am training up is actually a really good bloke and under normal circumstances I could see us being good friends.
I appreciate it's an emotive subject when your own job is at risk, all I would say is that these and any interaction, people need to separate out the underlying pain and also be careful not to generalise. This is not specific to your quote as reference to "they", "the people" could be specific to those individuals you're training rather than grouping 1.3bn people together who are Indian.

If you dislike someone or make a judgement on intelligence based on your specific interactions with them then that's fine (although others may or may not make the same judgement), if you're taking a negative experience of someone and therefore considering all people you've defined in a group based on a single characteristic (e.g. nationality, race, gender etc) then I think anyone doing that needs to challenge their own way of thinking. In any walks of life, there will be multiple variances between what people of a similar background can and can't do so stereotyping never really works that well.

I appreciate you say not the brightest at what they do (which may be right for those that came over), but i expect a lot of people would struggle to travel to a new country and have a job explained in a second language (I'm assuming you were conversing in English so they're likely to speak at least one more language than me) which they are picking up with less experience (hence part of the pay conversation as well). That their sole purpose in life is to take other peoples jobs is unlikely to be the case either, although I accept that's the sole purpose of your interaction.
 

Doon frae Troon

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And is my comment above any worse than the comments you hear every day about Scots being tightfisted or the Irish being thick?
It always amuses me when Scots complain about the tight fisted label as the Scots themselves have a sub-set about Aberdonians being tight fisted. Harry Lauder has a lot to answer for.
It is also interesting to see the general terms for Scots, Irish and Welsh being applied but the only thing that seems to apply to England is that they are 'shopkeepers'.:unsure:

Agree that bigotry seems to be a bigger issue than racism in Scotland.
 

drive4show

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I appreciate it's an emotive subject when your own job is at risk, all I would say is that these and any interaction, people need to separate out the underlying pain and also be careful not to generalise. This is not specific to your quote as reference to "they", "the people" could be specific to those individuals you're training rather than grouping 1.3bn people together who are Indian.

If you dislike someone or make a judgement on intelligence based on your specific interactions with them then that's fine (although others may or may not make the same judgement), if you're taking a negative experience of someone and therefore considering all people you've defined in a group based on a single characteristic (e.g. nationality, race, gender etc) then I think anyone doing that needs to challenge their own way of thinking. In any walks of life, there will be multiple variances between what people of a similar background can and can't do so stereotyping never really works that well.

I appreciate you say not the brightest at what they do (which may be right for those that came over), but i expect a lot of people would struggle to travel to a new country and have a job explained in a second language (I'm assuming you were conversing in English so they're likely to speak at least one more language than me) which they are picking up with less experience (hence part of the pay conversation as well). That their sole purpose in life is to take other peoples jobs is unlikely to be the case either, although I accept that's the sole purpose of your interaction.
You make lots of valid points and i appreciate them. Regarding your last point, we are talking about standard IT systems and software here which is universal but these guys really do not seem to have the same level of understanding that we have, it isn't a question of language. The work culture is also very different, they are very subservient and just do as instructed with no comprehension of challenging methods or suggesting a better alternative. But that is a whole different debate to the question of racism.
 

Lord Tyrion

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You make lots of valid points and i appreciate them. Regarding your last point, we are talking about standard IT systems and software here which is universal but these guys really do not seem to have the same level of understanding that we have, it isn't a question of language. The work culture is also very different, they are very subservient and just do as instructed with no comprehension of challenging methods or suggesting a better alternative. But that is a whole different debate to the question of racism.
My cousin went through a similar process when IT at Barclays was outsourced a good number of years ago. A depressing process to go through and his thoughts matched yours. He found the people he was training completely lovely and polite, his ire was very much directed at the bosses looking to cut costs and not caring about the outcomes and faults that would follow (they did as he was re-hired for a spell afterwards as a consultant and saw the problems happen that he foresaw, as you probably are predicting now)
 
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