DQ or not

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,640
Location
Edinburgh
Colin
Doesn't your ISV have the facility?
I understand ClubV1 has a beta version of an app and our manager is looking into that. The process I described is an emergency measure to allow us to get Supplementaries going until either we get such an app or we can safely access the clubhouse and have players using the terminal. Obviously if we had had a working app I wouldn't have needed to set it up. And I'm not suggesting it as an alternative to a working app.

I thought it very important to get scores in right away so that as many members as possible have as many recent scores as possible on record for the conversion to the WHS. We have many who will only have the minimum of 3 qualifying scores from last year and no qualifying competitoins at the moment. That concerns me.
 

SammmeBee

Journeyman Pro
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Where the Queen Lives!
I understand ClubV1 has a beta version of an app and our manager is looking into that. The process I described is an emergency measure to allow us to get Supplementaries going until either we get such an app or we can safely access the clubhouse and have players using the terminal. Obviously if we had had a working app I wouldn't have needed to set it up. And I'm not suggesting it as an alternative to a working app.

I thought it very important to get scores in right away so that as many members as possible have as many recent scores as possible on record for the conversion to the WHS. We have many who will only have the minimum of 3 qualifying scores from last year and no qualifying competitoins at the moment. That concerns me.
Certainly that should be a priority over everything else..
 

Old Skier

Tour Winner
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
6,955
Location
Instow - play in North Devon
Club systems beta version is now out to all clubs and is a very simple app to use. We have been using it now for comp booking and score entry ( although verification still needs doing manually) our seniors have taken to it very well and we are now expanding to all sections.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
22,175
If two of us are in a comp then I mark my score on his on a card and he does likewise. At the end we do a cross check and enter our scores hole by hole into IG using the IG app our via our website. We trust each other and know what we each scored in any case. If I need to update my handicap on IG before playing then i think I’d be able to. If I didn’t have the app then I guess I’d just hand in a card signed by myself after cross checking but not Signed by the other player. He’d be named on it though.
 
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
51
Location
Inverurie Aberdeenshire
I have set up a simple Wix website with online forms for registration of supplementaries and return of scores. The forms go to a designated email address (could be more than one) from which the scores are entered into the Clubv1 system. Not all by me, as it is very simple in gmail to forward a batch of emails to someone else for them to enter. In addition to the email record, the website maintains an online record of form submissions. Submitting a score is considered verification of the score by the player and confirmation that it was verified orally by the marker. It's working very well and coped to date with 320 supplementaries in the space of 10 days. With a little adaptation, it will work well for competitions.
For the player it is a very quick and easy process.
Colin

How did they sign in pre round for their Supplementaries?
 
Thread starter #27

jim8flog

Journeyman Pro
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
6,405
Location
Yeovil
If two of us are in a comp then I mark my score on his on a card and he does likewise. At the end we do a cross check and enter our scores hole by hole into IG using the IG app our via our website. We trust each other and know what we each scored in any case. If I need to update my handicap on IG before playing then i think I’d be able to. If I didn’t have the app then I guess I’d just hand in a card signed by myself after cross checking but not Signed by the other player. He’d be named on it though.
We have the player responsible for marking their own card and marking the other players score in the markers column (as per the R&A suggested method) and verbally agreed no markers signature on the card but the name of the marker must be on it and readable. We require all cards to be returned so we can cross check a players score with the markers column on the other card if needed.

Only about one third of the field in the last comp submitted their scores via the app hence the need for fairness in that all players are required to return their cards and are required to meet the same standard for what is written on the card.
 

woofers

Medal Winner
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
366
Location
West Sussex
I’m finding it a bit confusing.
Is the App / Smartphone entry a substitute for what is normally the PSI terminal?
On the basis that the committee require a photo of the scorecard, presumably that scorecard should be completed in the normal way ? (except the requirements for markers signature and self completion of scores are relaxed). If so, it would mean the omission of the handicap would result in DQ.
If the App / Smartphone is being treated as the scorecard, the handicap is already populated and cannot be omitted, (which is the same when scores are input at a PSI), so there would be no DQ?
By relaxing the rules, but not providing detailed guidance, I think the R&A / Englandgolf have given committees a bit of a headache.
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,640
Location
Edinburgh
We have the player responsible for marking their own card and marking the other players score in the markers column (as per the R&A suggested method) and verbally agreed no markers signature on the card but the name of the marker must be on it and readable. We require all cards to be returned so we can cross check a players score with the markers column on the other card if needed.

Only about one third of the field in the last comp submitted their scores via the app hence the need for fairness in that all players are required to return their cards and are required to meet the same standard for what is written on the card.
What do you do if there is a discrepancy? What is written on the marker's card has no standing at all. Nor for that matter is the marker required to write anything down. Also, I don't understand the point of ensuring that player and marker do not exchange cards but then collect in all the cards. It doesn't make sense to me if we are not having mutual handling of cards for safety reasons to have some mutual handling of cards. It's kind of contradictory.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #30

jim8flog

Journeyman Pro
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
6,405
Location
Yeovil
What do you do if there is a discrepancy? What is written on the marker's card has no standing at all. Nor for that matter is the marker required to write anything down. Also, I don't understand the point of ensuring that player and marker do not exchange cards but then collect in all the cards. It doesn't make sense to me if we are not having mutual handling of cards for safety reasons to have some mutual handling of cards. It's kind of contradictory.
Last point first we quarantine the cards for 2-3 days before processing them.

If there is a discrepancy we would contact both player and partner to confirm the score.

With some players writing it is way of being able to actually confirm what the player has written, I had to do that on several occasions when doing the cards last time.

A question to you - If the marker has not written anything down how are they going to verbally agree the score after the round?
 

rulefan

Tour Winner
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
7,898
By relaxing the rules, but not providing detailed guidance, I think the R&A / Englandgolf have given committees a bit of a headache.
The R&A have already said the the 2019 Rules that electronic score recording may be used to replace cards.
 
Last edited:

rulie

Head Pro
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
788
Last point first we quarantine the cards for 2-3 days before processing them.

If there is a discrepancy we would contact both player and partner to confirm the score.

With some players writing it is way of being able to actually confirm what the player has written, I had to do that on several occasions when doing the cards last time.

A question to you - If the marker has not written anything down how are they going to verbally agree the score after the round?
Maybe he wrote it down on a separate piece of napkin and threw it away after confirming the scores? I agree with Colin in post #29, where he says,
What is written on the marker's card has no standing at all. Nor for that matter is the marker required to write anything down.
 

woofers

Medal Winner
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
366
Location
West Sussex
The R&A have already said the the 2019 Rules that electronic score recording may be used to replace cards.
The R&A definition of scorecard is :

The document where a player’s score for each hole is entered in stroke play.

The scorecard may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee that allows:

  • The player’s score to be entered for each hole,
  • The player’s handicap to be entered, if it is a handicap competition, and
  • The marker and the player to certify the scores, and the player to certify his or her handicap in a handicap competition, either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.
I‘m not sure that bullet point 3 can be covered by just entering scores in an App / Smartphone.
If electronic certification is emailing or loading a photograph of the scorecard, my original questions still stand. Is the physical scorecard still the overriding document that, if not completed correctly, e.g no handicap shown, means DQ?
 
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
674
Location
Leicester
The R&A definition of scorecard is :

The document where a player’s score for each hole is entered in stroke play.

The scorecard may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee that allows:

  • The player’s score to be entered for each hole,
  • The player’s handicap to be entered, if it is a handicap competition, and
  • The marker and the player to certify the scores, and the player to certify his or her handicap in a handicap competition, either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.
I‘m not sure that bullet point 3 can be covered by just entering scores in an App / Smartphone.
If electronic certification is emailing or loading a photograph of the scorecard, my original questions still stand. Is the physical scorecard still the overriding document that, if not completed correctly, e.g no handicap shown, means DQ?
The R&A have authorised clubs to not require a markets authorisation during the pandemic. I would suggest that the fact that a player can only enter their score on the App after entering a password satisfies the requirement for the players authorisation.
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,640
Location
Edinburgh
Last point first we quarantine the cards for 2-3 days before processing them.

If there is a discrepancy we would contact both player and partner to confirm the score.

With some players writing it is way of being able to actually confirm what the player has written, I had to do that on several occasions when doing the cards last time.

A question to you - If the marker has not written anything down how are they going to verbally agree the score after the round?
As far as I am concerned, unless I write everything down I couldn't agree to anything. But there are those who say they can commit a score to memory and I reckon you would have to accept verification of a score by a marker who had done that.
 
Thread starter #36

jim8flog

Journeyman Pro
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
6,405
Location
Yeovil
I would quote what the R&A actually say

Scoring in Stroke Play (Rule 3.3b)
In view of concerns around handling and exchanging scorecards (which may be in paper or electronic form as already provided in the Rules), on a temporary basis, Committees may choose to allow methods of scoring in stroke play that do not strictly comply with Rule 3.3b or do not comply with the normal methods used under Rule 3.3b.

I am sure that every club has considered what is the best way for their club and as such there is no one single defined method for every club.
 

Old Skier

Tour Winner
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
6,955
Location
Instow - play in North Devon
I would quote what the R&A actually say

Scoring in Stroke Play (Rule 3.3b)
In view of concerns around handling and exchanging scorecards (which may be in paper or electronic form as already provided in the Rules), on a temporary basis, Committees may choose to allow methods of scoring in stroke play that do not strictly comply with Rule 3.3b or do not comply with the normal methods used under Rule 3.3b.

I am sure that every club has considered what is the best way for their club and as such there is no one single defined method for every club.
Correct, some clubs have different staff where as others like us don’t have the advantage of club pros and secretaries and committees have come up with the best way within the advise and rules to run things.
 

woofers

Medal Winner
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
366
Location
West Sussex
Players in the qualifying competitions are using the IG App or smartphone to enter their scores with success.
The issues arise in the photo scorecard upload, where the ‘success‘ rate is lower. This may be down to a number of reasons, poor wi-fi / internet issues at the club or just a lack of understanding of the process or ability. In a few cases it could be because they are members of the ’awkward squad’.
There is also a dedicated email address to send photos too, from home if need be.
The Pro Shop have also offered to photo cards and send them to the email address.
Cross verification from cards that have been uploaded has been tried but is very time consuming, however it isn’t always possible if none of the players in a group submit a photo.

Qusestions.
1. Can players be DQ’d for failing to submit / attach scorecard photos?
2. Should these scores be included in a players handicap record ?
 
Top