Day Trading - Options, Index, FX, Commodities

Thread starter #1

Mudball

Assistant Pro
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,568
I want to spend some serious time learning to trade. not necessarily to be a intra-day trader, but to get active in the market. This is primarily due to
1) a bit of time on the side during lockdown
2) need to get a new skill that i can use
3) I dont know how the job scene will be for a few years. What do i do when i am 55 and cant find a job?.

having said that, i dont think i want to make a career or living out of it (but who knows).

So thinking of doing some charting courses, opened a dummy account on a trading platform. Will be youtubing for some ideas. Equally, keen to see if there are free things for beginners. If i can get 10% return pa nett of taxes then i have done better than keeping it in the bank. Having been a long term investor and done some dodgy deals incl cryptos, I do understand the risk. So that does not bother me at the moment.

I am willing to learn and network. Maybe find a trading forum like this one too.

Anyone gone down that path, any guidance.
 

patricks148

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
20,250
Location
Highlands
I want to spend some serious time learning to trade. not necessarily to be a intra-day trader, but to get active in the market. This is primarily due to
1) a bit of time on the side during lockdown
2) need to get a new skill that i can use
3) I dont know how the job scene will be for a few years. What do i do when i am 55 and cant find a job?.

having said that, i dont think i want to make a career or living out of it (but who knows).

So thinking of doing some charting courses, opened a dummy account on a trading platform. Will be youtubing for some ideas. Equally, keen to see if there are free things for beginners. If i can get 10% return pa nett of taxes then i have done better than keeping it in the bank. Having been a long term investor and done some dodgy deals incl cryptos, I do understand the risk. So that does not bother me at the moment.

I am willing to learn and network. Maybe find a trading forum like this one too.

Anyone gone down that path, any guidance.
did it for best part of 15 years, some good times but glad i got out when i did, TBH i would rather work at Tesco than do it again..:cry:(y)
 

sunshine

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
959
Do you mean trading on your own account from home? Or joining a bank / broker / fund. Obviously a huge difference between the two.

I was invited to a charting course at an investment bank a long time ago. My impression from the day was the technical analysis essentially demonstrates herd behaviour - human nature - not insight. You need to find insight that others don't have to be successful. But that's just my view.

Probably most inspirational thing you can do is watch Trading Places.
 

TheDiablo

Challenge Tour Pro
Joined
Jan 23, 2015
Messages
1,281
Location
Surrey
Personally I don't think you actually *do* understand the risk.

A part time novice going up against skilled career traders, supercomputers and algorithms. There's only one way that's going 99% of the time.

By the significant amount of time and effort it will take to get near break even (long term) they'll have moved ahead even further and you would be better off in a simple tracker fund oe similar

To be honest, at 55 you should be looking the other way - converting those long term investments into bonds and cash. Not gambling your pension.

Time in the market will prevail over timing the market for almost everyone.
 
Thread starter #8

Mudball

Assistant Pro
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,568
Personally I don't think you actually *do* understand the risk.

A part time novice going up against skilled career traders, supercomputers and algorithms. There's only one way that's going 99% of the time.

By the significant amount of time and effort it will take to get near break even (long term) they'll have moved ahead even further and you would be better off in a simple tracker fund oe similar

To be honest, at 55 you should be looking the other way - converting those long term investments into bonds and cash. Not gambling your pension.

Time in the market will prevail over timing the market for almost everyone.
It is a good point, but the basic premise is not to 'beat the bank'. I am not trying to make millions, 10-15% annual returns using Options or Index CFD/Spread betting should be possible. Also amounts are smaller.
Rather than a beat the bank, the idea is to drink from the same watering hole with the banks and other institutes. I am happy being the bird on the hippos back while it is in the pool.

I have made and lost money in the past, but that was when i was young and foolish and uneducated. I have solved the young bit, now trying to solve the uneducated bit. :)
 

Neilds

Assistant Pro
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
572
Location
Wiltshire
It is a good point, but the basic premise is not to 'beat the bank'. I am not trying to make millions, 10-15% annual returns using Options or Index CFD/Spread betting should be possible. Also amounts are smaller.
Rather than a beat the bank, the idea is to drink from the same watering hole with the banks and other institutes. I am happy being the bird on the hippos back while it is in the pool.

I have made and lost money in the past, but that was when i was young and foolish and uneducated. I have solved the young bit, now trying to solve the uneducated bit. :)
If it is possible to make 10-15% how come we are all struggling along with 0.5% interest on our savings 🧐
 
Thread starter #10

Mudball

Assistant Pro
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,568
If it is possible to make 10-15% how come we are all struggling along with 0.5% interest on our savings 🧐
It is very possible.. it was being done in the pre-crisis days. ofcourse greed gets in the way. Now retail banking is 'ring fenced' from investment banking...
Also, just because the bank makes it, does not mean they will pass it onto you.
 

sunshine

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
959
I haven't been into a betting shop for a good 15 years, but back in the day, whenever I went in one there was always some geezer in there, chain smoking and watching the screens, surrounded by papers. Didn't matter where I was in the country, always a similar bloke in there. I got the impression that this bloke practically lived there, it was his chosen "career", and it looked a miserable life. Sure he could have got lucky and hit the jackpot, but chances were he was blowing all his benefits week in week out and scraping just enough to survive.

The day trader is the modern equivalent of this man.
 

sunshine

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
959
It is a good point, but the basic premise is not to 'beat the bank'. I am not trying to make millions, 10-15% annual returns using Options or Index CFD/Spread betting should be possible. Also amounts are smaller.
Rather than a beat the bank, the idea is to drink from the same watering hole with the banks and other institutes. I am happy being the bird on the hippos back while it is in the pool.
This indicates to me that you don't really understand how the trading houses makes money. 10-15% annual return is possible - is it probable?
 

Dibby

Assistant Pro
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
546
It is a good point, but the basic premise is not to 'beat the bank'. I am not trying to make millions, 10-15% annual returns using Options or Index CFD/Spread betting should be possible. Also amounts are smaller.
Rather than a beat the bank, the idea is to drink from the same watering hole with the banks and other institutes. I am happy being the bird on the hippos back while it is in the pool.

I have made and lost money in the past, but that was when i was young and foolish and uneducated. I have solved the young bit, now trying to solve the uneducated bit. :)
It's not fair to mix £ & %. A Bank can make millions and this still only be a low %. A bank making 1% of £500m is gonna beat you making 10% of whatever you have, assuming you don't have £50m to play with, which seems reasonable based on this thread.

At the end of the day, you can't just be drinking from the same watering hole as banks, because you will be taking some of the share that they want and therefore you will be competing with them. Keep in mind that people who do this for a living with professional training and years of experience get it wrong, what makes you think you can do better?

Trading is based on asymmetry of information, and it's likely as a lone participant without sophisticated tools and contacts you won't be on the winning side of this. Even if you did have exactly the same knowledge as the pros, you will have a higher latency connection and bigger margins\fees.

What made you choose this as a way to make money compared to other things you already have expertise in?
If you can answer that question not necessarily on here, but just to yourself it might give you some thought. Are you doing it because it seems like easy money, or is there more behind this choice?
 
Thread starter #14

Mudball

Assistant Pro
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,568
It's not fair to mix £ & %. A Bank can make millions and this still only be a low %. A bank making 1% of £500m is gonna beat you making 10% of whatever you have, assuming you don't have £50m to play with, which seems reasonable based on this thread.

At the end of the day, you can't just be drinking from the same watering hole as banks, because you will be taking some of the share that they want and therefore you will be competing with them. Keep in mind that people who do this for a living with professional training and years of experience get it wrong, what makes you think you can do better?

Trading is based on asymmetry of information, and it's likely as a lone participant without sophisticated tools and contacts you won't be on the winning side of this. Even if you did have exactly the same knowledge as the pros, you will have a higher latency connection and bigger margins\fees.

What made you choose this as a way to make money compared to other things you already have expertise in?
If you can answer that question not necessarily on here, but just to yourself it might give you some thought. Are you doing it because it seems like easy money, or is there more behind this choice?
Lets start with >> No easy money here.

I like 'being in the market'. I made a few quids - some pure luck some value. I lost a few quids too - some luck, some bad decision. 20 yrs ago, lost a lot thru day trading, but in hindsight it was a good learning.

  1. like everyone, I still hold stocks via isa, pensions etc. but now thinking i need to rekindle a side of me which brings some risk & rewards and also appeals to my intellectual side. Also, I am playing with money that i can do afford to lose. That money can be generated by not drinking or playing golf or lotto for a year or not. Small sacrifices for learning a new skill.
  2. I dont think we will ever get back to old normal of jobs. While my skills are still needed, i think i could do something better during downtime than watching pron.
  3. It is also a skill i want to teach my son - the same way i taught him to solve the rubiks cube under 3 mins.
  4. Is it gambling. Yes there is a high level of punting. But if you are not into naked punting, then it is risk management.
As you see, i do suffer from confirmation bias at the moment. Tonight i have a session with a very close friend of mine who is into FX. He started it as a side gig, and then it took over his life. His job suffered but he did make a six-figure payout in one year. He then quit FX and went back to 'normal' job. Even today, he will be checking his phone and websites and does some side trades. He wont do full time. He has offered to provide help in training and intros to his network.
 

Dibby

Assistant Pro
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
546
Lets start with >> No easy money here.

I like 'being in the market'. I made a few quids - some pure luck some value. I lost a few quids too - some luck, some bad decision. 20 yrs ago, lost a lot thru day trading, but in hindsight it was a good learning.

  1. like everyone, I still hold stocks via isa, pensions etc. but now thinking i need to rekindle a side of me which brings some risk & rewards and also appeals to my intellectual side. Also, I am playing with money that i can do afford to lose. That money can be generated by not drinking or playing golf or lotto for a year or not. Small sacrifices for learning a new skill.
  2. I dont think we will ever get back to old normal of jobs. While my skills are still needed, i think i could do something better during downtime than watching pron.
  3. It is also a skill i want to teach my son - the same way i taught him to solve the rubiks cube under 3 mins.
  4. Is it gambling. Yes there is a high level of punting. But if you are not into naked punting, then it is risk management.
As you see, i do suffer from confirmation bias at the moment. Tonight i have a session with a very close friend of mine who is into FX. He started it as a side gig, and then it took over his life. His job suffered but he did make a six-figure payout in one year. He then quit FX and went back to 'normal' job. Even today, he will be checking his phone and websites and does some side trades. He wont do full time. He has offered to provide help in training and intros to his network.
So just to clarify, are you doing it "for fun", just to learn something new, or are their serious aspirations of making income off of this?

If it's about serious money, what is your P&L from all your historic trades? More importantly, if your friend is teaching you, what is his P&L from all his trades, and can he prove it? What is his network? I hope he isn't just signing you up for commission?

When it comes to private individuals trading FX and commodities using CFDs or Spread Markets usually the only real winners are the trading platforms taking a commission on every trade or those who sign people up and take a commission (usually under the guise of having a system to follow etc...). Even the video linked seems to be a big promotion for Lex Van Dams training academy.


Noone here can tell you what to do, but make sure you are considering all sides of this, and not just the one you want to see.
 
Thread starter #16

Mudball

Assistant Pro
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,568
So just to clarify, are you doing it "for fun", just to learn something new, or are their serious aspirations of making income off of this?

If it's about serious money, what is your P&L from all your historic trades? More importantly, if your friend is teaching you, what is his P&L from all his trades, and can he prove it? What is his network? I hope he isn't just signing you up for commission?

When it comes to private individuals trading FX and commodities using CFDs or Spread Markets usually the only real winners are the trading platforms taking a commission on every trade or those who sign people up and take a commission (usually under the guise of having a system to follow etc...). Even the video linked seems to be a big promotion for Lex Van Dams training academy.


Noone here can tell you what to do, but make sure you are considering all sides of this, and not just the one you want to see.

All valid question... I am serious to learn, money earned is fun. if it gets into serious money, then it will be even better.
My P&L on day trades was not very good. My value based is ok (but biased)
Re my friend, afik, he has done some good money. he is a lone wolf so does not get commission off me.

I agree with you, the people who make money are the platforms who will get commission on both sides. It just like the gold rush, the people who made money are the people who were selling the shovels rather than those who were panning for gold.
 
Thread starter #17

Mudball

Assistant Pro
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,568
opened an account with IG... they have a disclaimer every time u go onto the website... This is the same as putting a warning on a cigarette pack

Spread bets and CFDs are complex instruments and come with a high risk of losing money rapidly due to leverage. 76% of retail investor accounts lose money when trading spread bets and CFDs with this provider. You should consider whether you understand how spread bets and CFDs work, and whether you can afford to take the high risk of losing your money.
 

sunshine

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
959
It is also a skill i want to teach my son
A skill? It's just gambling.

The FX market is the largest market in the world, it's the deepest most liquid market. Rates go up or they go down, you can't possibly know what's going to happen because the current spot price has already factored in everything that millions of market participants think is going to happen. Speculating on FX is like tossing a coin.

Dibby referred to asymmetry of information, which is how you make money from trading. Has your friend written algorithms to identify FX arbitrage opportunities and developed high frequency electronic trading to take advantage of the millisecond that arbitrage exists? If not, he is just guessing head or tails and got lucky.

But if you are not into naked punting, then it is risk management.
But you don't have a natural position so it's not risk management. It's speculating. I'm not trying to stop you - you go ahead and have fun. But please open your eyes and recognise it's not some sort of highly skilled profession - it's just gambling.
 
Thread starter #19

Mudball

Assistant Pro
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,568
Been away from here and jumped into learning Forex Trading. In the past 2 weeks, I have had ulcer, piles, hair loss and financial loss. Started with £10k and have lost £2.5k, but made back some and finished nett of 500 quid loss.
Steep learning curve. Tnx to lockdown, I have been staring at screens all day and I can see why this can be addictive and dangerous. Absolutely loved it. A must watch video of how markets operate here >>

Ps: before someone shouts, I have been playing with virtual money in a dummy account.
 
Top