Club comps

clubchamp98

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So all casual and comp play for the women is from the same set of tees that aren't protected over the winter and you're surprised they don't want even more wear and tear on them during the golf season?

Now I obviously don't know your course but at many courses, including mine, the red tees are pretty crap in comparison to the white/yellows so I'm going to say there's a fair chance that applies at your place too. Factor that into the equation.

I really think you should try and see it from their perspective rather than castigating them.

Look, sorry, I don't want to come across as picking on you but the "we wanted to do x but the women vetoed it" is such a common golf club trope and it never seems to consider that maybe "the women" have good reasons and maybe by involving them more better decisions could be made and agreed upon. And, as you probably appreciate, I'm projecting what you describe onto different but similar situations at clubs where I've been a member.
That’s what they have asked for ,would you want us to go against the wishes of the ladies section,there isn’t great numbers so the tees don’t get worn.
Have you read my posts .
I have clearly stated the red tees are maintained to the same standard as the whites.
And just given you the facts about the quote from the ladies section.
At the end of the day we need to do what is best for the majority of members .
 

Kaz

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At the end of the day we need to do what is best for the majority of members .
The problem at many golf clubs is they are run by men for men and women get castigated if they dare to dissent.

Usually justified with euphemisms such as this.
 

clubchamp98

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The problem at many golf clubs is they are run by men for men and women get castigated if they dare to dissent.

Usually justified with euphemisms such as this.
That’s how a membership works though.
Should we do what a minority want all the time?
We wanted to get rid of the small stand alone tees and make long teeing areas that had all tees on them .
This would make it easier to maintain them for the green staff .but the ladies said NO.
 

Kaz

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That’s how a membership works though.
Should we do what a minority want all the time?
We wanted to get rid of the small stand alone tees and make long teeing areas that had all tees on them .
This would make it easier to maintain them for the green staff .but the ladies said NO.
For every decision? Every time? Easy to say if you are in the majority.

What I am trying to do is challenge the sort of "groupthink" around how golf clubs are run and managed and to try and get people such as yourself to actually think about what different sections of membership want/need and to respect the implications of that. For example, the tees you describe may well make maintenance easier for the green staff but, by the sound of it, to the determent of the enjoyment of golf for the female members. You would be better served, IMO, by trying to understand why your women rejected that idea rather than just castigating them for it.

Here's an example from a club where I used to be a member. A downhill par 3 hole with a burn in front of the green had a separate "ladies" tee further forward than the "mens". The club decided to do away with that tee and set up the red tee on the front of the main tee and save the maintenance cost. Seems reasonable enough but what it meant in practice was that a significant proportion of the women could now not carry the burn even with driver and the downhill aspect meant that it was very hard to lay up short of the burn - effectively you needed some luck with a soft bounce. One of the best holes on the course effectively ruined for a significant number of players. And then they couldn't get it changed back!

Here's another, from a different club. On one hole they removed a fairway bunker without any consultation that they were going to do it. When challenged, the reply was that it was superfluous as it wasn't in range off the tee so it wasn't really in play and they could save some costs be removing it. Seems reasonable. Except that the "ladies" tee on that hole was significantly further forward and that bunker was right in the landing area and basically the only thing you had to worry about for the tee shot. A decision taken with zero consideration of female members that damaged the hole for us.

Don't get too hung up on the specifics of this conversation as it pertains to your club. I keep saying, I know nothing about your club so there is a lot of projection on my part happening here. All that I am arguing is that it is entirely legitimate for the women to have a different perspective on these sort of decisions and that clubs need to ensure we are involved in the strategy to help make good decisions that balance the needs of the club as a whole.
 

Kaz

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I'd also add that it's a cross-section of the different types of member that should be involved. I was asked about that par 3 change and thought it was a good idea - it improved the hole for someone who played it like I did. Only when they changed it and I played with some friends who (rightly) hated it did I realise that I was as guilty as anyone else for failing to consider all the implications. We all instinctively think about things initially in terms of their impact on ourselves. I'm trying to do better.
 

patricks148

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The problem at many golf clubs is they are run by men for men and women get castigated if they dare to dissent.

Usually justified with euphemisms such as this.
Thats a bit rich though, theres plenty of clubs where the only thing holding them back is them, certainly my experience and the case at both the clubs i'm a member of at the moment... double standards are rife
 

Kaz

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Thats a bit rich though, theres plenty of clubs where the only thing holding them back is them, certainly my experience and the case at both the clubs i'm a member of at the moment... double standards are rife
I understand the point you are making, and it's a source of frustration to me too, however it is never that straightforward. The whole "us and them" mentality needs to change.
 

clubchamp98

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For every decision? Every time? Easy to say if you are in the majority.

What I am trying to do is challenge the sort of "groupthink" around how golf clubs are run and managed and to try and get people such as yourself to actually think about what different sections of membership want/need and to respect the implications of that. For example, the tees you describe may well make maintenance easier for the green staff but, by the sound of it, to the determent of the enjoyment of golf for the female members. You would be better served, IMO, by trying to understand why your women rejected that idea rather than just castigating them for it.

Here's an example from a club where I used to be a member. A downhill par 3 hole with a burn in front of the green had a separate "ladies" tee further forward than the "mens". The club decided to do away with that tee and set up the red tee on the front of the main tee and save the maintenance cost. Seems reasonable enough but what it meant in practice was that a significant proportion of the women could now not carry the burn even with driver and the downhill aspect meant that it was very hard to lay up short of the burn - effectively you needed some luck with a soft bounce. One of the best holes on the course effectively ruined for a significant number of players. And then they couldn't get it changed back!

Here's another, from a different club. On one hole they removed a fairway bunker without any consultation that they were going to do it. When challenged, the reply was that it was superfluous as it wasn't in range off the tee so it wasn't really in play and they could save some costs be removing it. Seems reasonable. Except that the "ladies" tee on that hole was significantly further forward and that bunker was right in the landing area and basically the only thing you had to worry about for the tee shot. A decision taken with zero consideration of female members that damaged the hole for us.

Don't get too hung up on the specifics of this conversation as it pertains to your club. I keep saying, I know nothing about your club so there is a lot of projection on my part happening here. All that I am arguing is that it is entirely legitimate for the women to have a different perspective on these sort of decisions and that clubs need to ensure we are involved in the strategy to help make good decisions that balance the needs of the club as a whole.
Yes I know this .
But one thing I would like you to back up is where I have castigated the women.
 

Kaz

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Well unfortunately that tells me more about your attitude to men not mine towards women.
If your going to accuse me of something at least back it up.
I haven't accused you of anything. Read back your posts and I think the inference that you were blaming "the women" for the situation at your club was perfectly reasonable.

Let's not start bickering about it. I've been trying quite hard to make a much broader argument than the specifics at your club. I apologise for any offence you have taken from my comments.
 

clubchamp98

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I haven't accused you of anything. Read back your posts and I think the inference that you were blaming "the women" for the situation at your club was perfectly reasonable.

Let's not start bickering about it. I've been trying quite hard to make a much broader argument than the specifics at your club. I apologise for any offence you have taken from my comments.
“ you would be better served IMO trying to understand why your women rejected that idea instead of CASTIGATING them”

Think that’s a accusation.
The women were asked their opinion that’s how we found out the answer was NO!
That’s why we didn’t do it.
So their views were acted upon.

Not offended . Nice talking to you.
 

Crazyface

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Our club are insisting that the golf powers that be haven't said comps are ok yet so have no plan to start them up. Why are others doing this?

PS I'm not bothered, as I've decided not to play in ours anyway.
 
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Our club are insisting that the golf powers that be haven't said comps are ok yet so have no plan to start them up. Why are others doing this?
As I see it, one of the key things about being a "club member" for many people (not all, but a large number) is that it gives them access to competitive golf, the provision of a handicap, and the opportunity to improve in a measurable fashion (I.e get their handicap down). Competitive golf is an important part of club life for these people. Committees therefore have a responsibility to provide such "facilities" as soon as they are reasonably able to do so.

It is highly unlikely that we will instantly return to a pre-covid status and will not be able to simply run competitions in the same way as we did previously. As we exit the current situation over the next 3,6,12 months, it is likely that competition entry and management processes will evolve and change as the "restrictive guidance" changes. At the very least committees should be preparing for the reintroduction of competitive golf as soon as it is reasonably safe to do so.

Additionally, England Golf have not said (in their "Framework for Playing Golf" document) that you MUST not play competitive golf...merely they recommend against it. So it is still very much left to the individual club to make the final decision.
 

Diamond

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If we just had members who played off the red tees and entered red tee competitions golf clubs would need to liaise With those members if they wanted to make changes to the red tees. If this is was the case gender wouldn’t come into it.
I don’t agree with anyone not being allowed to play in a competition or on a specific day based on gender. If there is a competition then make It clear which tees it is off to be able to enter. Looking at some open competitions you can only enter if you play of 8 or 16 etc clubs can do this based on tee off areas.
 

Crazyface

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As I see it, one of the key things about being a "club member" for many people (not all, but a large number) is that it gives them access to competitive golf, the provision of a handicap, and the opportunity to improve in a measurable fashion (I.e get their handicap down). Competitive golf is an important part of club life for these people. Committees therefore have a responsibility to provide such "facilities" as soon as they are reasonably able to do so.

It is highly unlikely that we will instantly return to a pre-covid status and will not be able to simply run competitions in the same way as we did previously. As we exit the current situation over the next 3,6,12 months, it is likely that competition entry and management processes will evolve and change as the "restrictive guidance" changes. At the very least committees should be preparing for the reintroduction of competitive golf as soon as it is reasonably safe to do so.

Additionally, England Golf have not said (in their "Framework for Playing Golf" document) that you MUST not play competitive golf...merely they recommend against it. So it is still very much left to the individual club to make the final decision.
Why can no ruling body make a solid Yes or No decision on anything? They leave it to others (to them the great unwashed) to decide what to do. then watch bicker and argue themselves to death over the decisions. That how the rulers rule us. We have got to stop bluddy arguing over things. If we are not given clear guidance on anything, we should just go ahead and make a decision on what we think is correct and not attack each other if we think the decision is wrong.
 
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