Blm-Renaming the masters

DanFST

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Surely that's just whataboutery?
Same as the Penny Lane thing.
Lets try and stick to known facts rather than uninformed assumptions and I think we'd all get a consensus.
There are no facts, just an ambiguous line from a known racist, that's the issue . We aren't privvy to the conversations that occurred when the name changed from the Invitational.

FWIW: I think the name is fine, looking at the membership, you can't just be rich, you need to be incredibly powerful and a "master" of the US in your field. Not racism in this case, just sheer arrogance. However if i had a chip on my shoulder, I could see why some "may" want it changed.

Here's a young Tiger speaking about it. - do you not find that sad?
 
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There are no facts, just an ambiguous line from a known racist, that's the issue . We aren't privvy to the conversations that occurred when the name changed from the Invitational.

FWIW: I think the name is fine, looking at the membership, you can't just be rich, you need to be incredibly powerful and a "master" of the US in your field. Not racism in this case, just sheer arrogance. However if i had a chip on my shoulder, I could see why some "may" want it changed.

Here's a young Tiger speaking about it. - do you not find that sad?
The club is called Augusta National Golf Club, not The Masters so the latter is in no way intended to be reflective of the membership.
 

Papas1982

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There are no facts, just an ambiguous line from a known racist, that's the issue . We aren't privvy to the conversations that occurred when the name changed from the Invitational.

FWIW: I think the name is fine, looking at the membership, you can't just be rich, you need to be incredibly powerful and a "master" of the US in your field. Not racism in this case, just sheer arrogance. However if i had a chip on my shoulder, I could see why some "may" want it changed.

Here's a young Tiger speaking about it. - do you not find that sad?
He wanted it called the masters from the start and every article i can find said others argued about the arrogance it could be linked to.

Yes he was racist, but claiming it was the reason for the naming is a stretch at best. You can't change everything just because it offends someone. If it was openly offensive then i would agree, but it quite clearly isn't.
 

sunshine

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So you now acknowledge that the original premise is based on a falsehood.
Surely you can understand that most people on here were ridiculing the daft premise and not the real issue of racism?
Oh wow, you're really fixating on avoiding the underlying issue. I haven't changed my stance on the use of the word Masters, go back and read my posts, but I think we've moved on to a wider conversation on racism at the Masters / Augusta.

This is a golf forum so people come on here to talk to others who look and think like them. I get that. Sometimes it is helpful to listen to others who think and look differently to you, to educate yourself about structural racism, to understand why someone with a chip on their shoulder might believe the Masters is an insult to black people.
 

sunshine

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How can you possibly have formulated that based on the posts on this thread?

If you ask a stupid question, you’ll get stupid answers, that’s what you have
What I am seeing on this thread is a number of posters looking to avoid hard questions, trivialising the issue creates the impression that they are denying that racism is a problem.

What I've seen is the use of very dismissive language, from you in particular. Because you don't agree with the comments they are "stupid" and "ridiculous", because this keeps you comfortable. There is little recognition that there may be an underlying issue, because this is uncomfortable.

The word privilege has been used in the BLM movement. Being able to ignore racism is a privilege, and it is something that many people have never had to understand.
 

Kaz

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I think people are getting too defensive about this specific example when it's really about symbolism and raising awareness.

In my field, software development, terms like master, slave, whitelist etc are in common usage and similar conversations are happening. In many cases there is a sinister, albeit unconscious etymology for the way the language has evolved. Crudely, white is good, black is bad. One major site, GitHub, is abandoning these terms. Replacing master, for example, with a term such as "primary" or "main". I'm in favour of that.

If people can approach the subject with an open mind I think there are valuable conversations to be had. I'm learning all the time at the moment.
 
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What I am seeing on this thread is a number of posters looking to avoid hard questions, trivialising the issue creates the impression that they are denying that racism is a problem.

What I've seen is the use of very dismissive language, from you in particular. Because you don't agree with the comments they are "stupid" and "ridiculous", because this keeps you comfortable. There is little recognition that there may be an underlying issue, because this is uncomfortable.

The word privilege has been used in the BLM movement. Being able to ignore racism is a privilege, and it is something that many people have never had to understand.
Can I ask what experience you have personally of racism?
 

Papas1982

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I think people are getting too defensive about this specific example when it's really about symbolism and raising awareness.

In my field, software development, terms like master, slave, whitelist etc are in common usage and similar conversations are happening. In many cases there is a sinister, albeit unconscious etymology for the way the language has evolved. Crudely, white is good, black is bad. One major site, GitHub, is abandoning these terms. Replacing master, for example, with a term such as "primary" or "main". I'm in favour of that.

If people can approach the subject with an open mind I think there are valuable conversations to be had. I'm learning all the time at the moment.
I think in coding there's a valid point.

Because the word master is basically being used in the way that has it as all powerful over a slave.

BUT the word master itself has many meanings. I wouldnt remove it from bedroom either, but can accept some might as it means main and some will argue it implies the others are inferior.

My biggest issue is that eventually a line needs to be drawn or we spend all out time arguing over things trivial (like a golf course name) instead of the real issue.
 

Lazkir

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Oh wow, you're really fixating on avoiding the underlying issue. I haven't changed my stance on the use of the word Masters, go back and read my posts, but I think we've moved on to a wider conversation on racism at the Masters / Augusta.

This is a golf forum so people come on here to talk to others who look and think like them. I get that. Sometimes it is helpful to listen to others who think and look differently to you, to educate yourself about structural racism, to understand why someone with a chip on their shoulder might believe the Masters is an insult to black people.

No, I'm not avoiding anything, if anything you're the one that's overly 'fixated' if you're seeing racism where it isn't.

Where do you stand on the Coco Pops issue? Is that a real and perceived thing or was it just someone trying to exploit the current situation and get some attention?
 

Kaz

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I think in coding there's a valid point.

Because the word master is basically being used in the way that has it as all powerful over a slave.

BUT the word master itself has many meanings. I wouldnt remove it from bedroom either, but can accept some might as it means main and some will argue it implies the others are inferior.

My biggest issue is that eventually a line needs to be drawn or we spend all out time arguing over things trivial (like a golf course name) instead of the real issue.
Not in all contexts. In Git, we might use "master" as the main branch - likely the production version of the code and we take branches (think copies) from it to develop new features. In that sense it has as little to do with slavery as your master bedroom.

I think it's an interesting conversation for those prepared to engage with it.
 

Diamond

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Not being argumentative but i think i disagree with you on this point , i suspect the majority of BAME people will not give a rats arse who owns what as long as they get equal opportunities .
The clubs\corporations need to be owned\run by the best person for the job not someone defined by his\her skin colour or heritage .It would be great if that person was from the BAME community
but , again , in my opinion just putting someone in a position just because of their racial background does no service to the aims of movements like BLM and the wider BAME community .
True equality is giving all the same opportunities , education and living standards and this is what we should strive for .
Cutting my point down to the basic principle I will use a football club. If the owner is black he will in turn employ black staff which means the probability of a black manager is higher. I can’t name a black football club owner and I can only name 2-3 black managers (Curle, Campbell and Hughton). More black owners will mean more equal opportunity for black managers. That was my point.
 

Papas1982

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Cutting my point down to the basic principle I will use a football club. If the owner is black he will in turn employ black staff which means the probability of a black manager is higher. I can’t name a black football club owner and I can only name 2-3 black managers (Curle, Campbell and Hughton). More black owners will mean more equal opportunity for black managers. That was my point.
No. That's not more equal opportunities.

Equal opportunities is having the same chance irrespective of employers colour. All yours above is doing, is compounding racism from a different ethnicity.
 

Diamond

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Having not looked at this thread for a couple of days I could be here all evening replying to all the posts so I won’t.:)

There are a number of opinions that are all different so a good debate.

The issue at the heart of this is bigger than the name of a golf tournament. If the only problem was the name of the Masters tournament then the world would be a much better place to live.
 

Diamond

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No. That's not more equal opportunities.

Equal opportunities is having the same chance irrespective of employers colour. All yours above is doing, is compounding racism from a different ethnicity.
Making a statement like equal opportunities doesn’t mean anything to anyone of a BAME background who comes across racism on a regular basis. My point is that when a third of all owners are BAME in this country we will be getting somewhere close to where we want to be.
 

Papas1982

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Making a statement like equal opportunities doesn’t mean anything to anyone of a BAME background who comes across racism on a regular basis. My point is that when a third of all owners are BAME in this country we will be getting somewhere close to where we want to be.
You won't be though.

Beciase the. Your Basically saying blacks will just employ clakcs, Chinese just Chinese etc.

That isn't actually progress.
 

Diamond

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You won't be though.

Beciase the. Your Basically saying blacks will just employ clakcs, Chinese just Chinese etc.

That isn't actually progress.
That isn’t what I am saying. I am saying progress is a black man owning a football club. Think about it, it’s the colour of his skin. Running the country, managing England etc etc. Until that day comes we are no better off.
 

Papas1982

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That isn’t what I am saying. I am saying progress is a black man owning a football club. Think about it, it’s the colour of his skin. Running the country, managing England etc etc. Until that day comes we are no better off.
I don’t think a black person has to be pm, or manage England to show that. Obama was president and there’s plenty of issues in the US. But I do get your point.
 

oxymoron

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Cutting my point down to the basic principle I will use a football club. If the owner is black he will in turn employ black staff which means the probability of a black manager is higher. I can’t name a black football club owner and I can only name 2-3 black managers (Curle, Campbell and Hughton). More black owners will mean more equal opportunity for black managers. That was my point.
Is this not in turn racist ? Surely the best man\woman for the job is the way to go ? Progress is giving the black person the environment and the opportunity not just paying lip service, this solves nothing and may open up an entirely new
can of worms giving oxygen to racists to who will perceive this as discrimination against them .This is a complicated matter where a golf forum will never ever agree to the best course of action we will just wind each other up and descend to petty insults .
 

sunshine

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Is this not in turn racist ? Surely the best man\woman for the job is the way to go ? Progress is giving the black person the environment and the opportunity not just paying lip service, this solves nothing and may open up an entirely new
can of worms giving oxygen to racists to who will perceive this as discrimination against them .This is a complicated matter where a golf forum will never ever agree to the best course of action we will just wind each other up and descend to petty insults .
In theory what you say is correct.

However, research has shown that having diverse management leads to recruitment of a more diverse team. Probably due to unconscious bias. So if a business consistently wants to recruit the best person for the job (regardless of race or gender), the most effective way is to promote some minorities to decision making roles. That's why so many companies are trying to reach quotas for female board representation. There is a risk that someone gets over-promoted on the race/gender ticket - it seems a risk most companies are prepared to take.

I think anyone would feel miffed if they were overlooked for promotion in favour of a BAME colleague who was meeting a quota. I suppose the counter argument is that the BAME employees may have been unfairly overlooked many many times before. It's a tough one - I don't have the answer.
 
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