Blm-Renaming the masters

Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Messages
472
Sorry in advance as i appreciate this won't be a popular post, but reading this and the sexism thread and to me there are some really bad takes. I know it's just the challenge of a forum, and I'm not suggesting people on this forum are racist, I'm just suggesting that people could probably listen better to conversations being had rather than sweep them away.

I know the original article was potentially designed to provoke a reaction, so I'm not suggesting changing the name of the Masters unless there was clear swell of opinion, but it's quite clear that golf does have a race problem. Even with potentially the greatest player being black, the participation figures for minority groups and also women are very low. That may be a society in general issue (for example wealth in different communities) rather than specific to golf, but I think we should be more open to that fact and potentially have a stronger conversation then trying to make the point look like irrational by focusing on things such as paint being removed from a store.

On black caddies, the words of the previous chairman are damming and odd to think it still present as an issue in the 80s. One poster said the caddies complained when rules changed so that's a sign perhaps it wasn't a clear cut thing - if you're limited to certain jobs by discrimination and someone takes away the better paying element then you would be annoyed. Doesn't mean the discrimination is right to begin with, only that there was potentially an argument for using the club caddies if it were a diverse group by choice to begin with.

On F1 cars, how can you be upset (which tone suggests) around a car changing livery. It happens often as with helmets, and just a way for an employer to support an employee, raise awareness of a global movement and in this world it's probably good for the brand. They're not saying that solves the issue, or that silver cars were the issue to begin with, just keeping the discussion in the spotlight for a little longer rather than trivialising it. Agree it will only be useful if they take action to support change but it's something they can easily do now so why be concerned about it. I also think it looks quite sharp as a livery.

On Augusta itself, is a rule change enough to say an organisation doesn't have race issues when it's built on the back of them as some have suggested here. Yes they've changed it now, but the horse has bolted so it's arguably no more than a token effort and hasn't actually changed anything. You've got a club in a fairly poor district, in a state where 65% of population is black, yet you've got a rich, predominantly white male club in the middle of it. Doesn't seem quite right. Now the answer probably isn't to admit members to become more diverse because of the wealth has given it a different divide, but perhaps more could be done by them to grow the game in the community. I don't see a lot of press articles on this (perhaps it happens?) although I do congratulate them on the Women's event and the junior drive, pitch and putt tournament and I believe donations for Covid support and others into the community. A membership with that wealth and that history (i appreciate not current members who are likely to be more open) probably need to do a lot more if they are continuing to be one of our leading weeks in golf for the world to see so that it's unequivocal for reporters looking for a story that golf is open to all.

Anecdotes about general improvement over the decades - yes it has improved, I'm white so don't know but I expect there are less obvious discrimination (e.g. offensive words said out loud), but I would still suggest that statistics still show minority groups over represented in areas such as poverty, education and crime. If things were equal and had improved to make these discussions go away then that shouldn't be the case unless you think those are genetic issues.

So yes, name changes and statues being pulled down probably seem pointless, but if it helps the bigger picture or gets people engaged, then I'm personally not going to be offended about having the conversation on it. After all, it's just a name as some say.
 

Kaz

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
218
Sorry in advance as i appreciate this won't be a popular post, but reading this and the sexism thread and to me there are some really bad takes. I know it's just the challenge of a forum, and I'm not suggesting people on this forum are racist, I'm just suggesting that people could probably listen better to conversations being had rather than sweep them away.

I know the original article was potentially designed to provoke a reaction, so I'm not suggesting changing the name of the Masters unless there was clear swell of opinion, but it's quite clear that golf does have a race problem. Even with potentially the greatest player being black, the participation figures for minority groups and also women are very low. That may be a society in general issue (for example wealth in different communities) rather than specific to golf, but I think we should be more open to that fact and potentially have a stronger conversation then trying to make the point look like irrational by focusing on things such as paint being removed from a store.

On black caddies, the words of the previous chairman are damming and odd to think it still present as an issue in the 80s. One poster said the caddies complained when rules changed so that's a sign perhaps it wasn't a clear cut thing - if you're limited to certain jobs by discrimination and someone takes away the better paying element then you would be annoyed. Doesn't mean the discrimination is right to begin with, only that there was potentially an argument for using the club caddies if it were a diverse group by choice to begin with.

On F1 cars, how can you be upset (which tone suggests) around a car changing livery. It happens often as with helmets, and just a way for an employer to support an employee, raise awareness of a global movement and in this world it's probably good for the brand. They're not saying that solves the issue, or that silver cars were the issue to begin with, just keeping the discussion in the spotlight for a little longer rather than trivialising it. Agree it will only be useful if they take action to support change but it's something they can easily do now so why be concerned about it. I also think it looks quite sharp as a livery.

On Augusta itself, is a rule change enough to say an organisation doesn't have race issues when it's built on the back of them as some have suggested here. Yes they've changed it now, but the horse has bolted so it's arguably no more than a token effort and hasn't actually changed anything. You've got a club in a fairly poor district, in a state where 65% of population is black, yet you've got a rich, predominantly white male club in the middle of it. Doesn't seem quite right. Now the answer probably isn't to admit members to become more diverse because of the wealth has given it a different divide, but perhaps more could be done by them to grow the game in the community. I don't see a lot of press articles on this (perhaps it happens?) although I do congratulate them on the Women's event and the junior drive, pitch and putt tournament and I believe donations for Covid support and others into the community. A membership with that wealth and that history (i appreciate not current members who are likely to be more open) probably need to do a lot more if they are continuing to be one of our leading weeks in golf for the world to see so that it's unequivocal for reporters looking for a story that golf is open to all.

Anecdotes about general improvement over the decades - yes it has improved, I'm white so don't know but I expect there are less obvious discrimination (e.g. offensive words said out loud), but I would still suggest that statistics still show minority groups over represented in areas such as poverty, education and crime. If things were equal and had improved to make these discussions go away then that shouldn't be the case unless you think those are genetic issues.

So yes, name changes and statues being pulled down probably seem pointless, but if it helps the bigger picture or gets people engaged, then I'm personally not going to be offended about having the conversation on it. After all, it's just a name as some say.
Well said. (y)
 

sunshine

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
1,057
It's an invitational. The solution is easy, just invite someone other than the top 50 golfers. That is elitist. Be more inclusive, broaden the entry criteria, have more choppers.
That's ok as long as they invite me. I think I could handle the course, just not sure I could cope with the a
Sorry in advance as i appreciate this won't be a popular post, but reading this and the sexism thread and to me there are some really bad takes. I know it's just the challenge of a forum, and I'm not suggesting people on this forum are racist, I'm just suggesting that people could probably listen better to conversations being had rather than sweep them away.

I know the original article was potentially designed to provoke a reaction, so I'm not suggesting changing the name of the Masters unless there was clear swell of opinion, but it's quite clear that golf does have a race problem. Even with potentially the greatest player being black, the participation figures for minority groups and also women are very low. That may be a society in general issue (for example wealth in different communities) rather than specific to golf, but I think we should be more open to that fact and potentially have a stronger conversation then trying to make the point look like irrational by focusing on things such as paint being removed from a store.

On black caddies, the words of the previous chairman are damming and odd to think it still present as an issue in the 80s. One poster said the caddies complained when rules changed so that's a sign perhaps it wasn't a clear cut thing - if you're limited to certain jobs by discrimination and someone takes away the better paying element then you would be annoyed. Doesn't mean the discrimination is right to begin with, only that there was potentially an argument for using the club caddies if it were a diverse group by choice to begin with.

On F1 cars, how can you be upset (which tone suggests) around a car changing livery. It happens often as with helmets, and just a way for an employer to support an employee, raise awareness of a global movement and in this world it's probably good for the brand. They're not saying that solves the issue, or that silver cars were the issue to begin with, just keeping the discussion in the spotlight for a little longer rather than trivialising it. Agree it will only be useful if they take action to support change but it's something they can easily do now so why be concerned about it. I also think it looks quite sharp as a livery.

On Augusta itself, is a rule change enough to say an organisation doesn't have race issues when it's built on the back of them as some have suggested here. Yes they've changed it now, but the horse has bolted so it's arguably no more than a token effort and hasn't actually changed anything. You've got a club in a fairly poor district, in a state where 65% of population is black, yet you've got a rich, predominantly white male club in the middle of it. Doesn't seem quite right. Now the answer probably isn't to admit members to become more diverse because of the wealth has given it a different divide, but perhaps more could be done by them to grow the game in the community. I don't see a lot of press articles on this (perhaps it happens?) although I do congratulate them on the Women's event and the junior drive, pitch and putt tournament and I believe donations for Covid support and others into the community. A membership with that wealth and that history (i appreciate not current members who are likely to be more open) probably need to do a lot more if they are continuing to be one of our leading weeks in golf for the world to see so that it's unequivocal for reporters looking for a story that golf is open to all.

Anecdotes about general improvement over the decades - yes it has improved, I'm white so don't know but I expect there are less obvious discrimination (e.g. offensive words said out loud), but I would still suggest that statistics still show minority groups over represented in areas such as poverty, education and crime. If things were equal and had improved to make these discussions go away then that shouldn't be the case unless you think those are genetic issues.

So yes, name changes and statues being pulled down probably seem pointless, but if it helps the bigger picture or gets people engaged, then I'm personally not going to be offended about having the conversation on it. After all, it's just a name as some say.
Well said. The way that some of the posters have trivialised this discussion shows there is a clear race issue among members of this forum. I'm not calling anyone racist, just uninformed. Sadly a few conforming to the worst golfer stereotypes.
 

PhilTheFragger

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
11,737
Location
Aylesbury Bucks
Well said. The way that some of the posters have trivialised this discussion shows there is a clear race issue among members of this forum. I'm not calling anyone racist, just uninformed. Sadly a few conforming to the worst golfer stereotypes.
I disagree strongly, the discussion has been trivialised initially by some attention seeker looking for their 5 minutes of fame by trying to find a link between The Masters as it is now and BLM, it is a non issue

If you spout a ridiculous premise, then you will attract equally ridiculous and sarcastic responses

Put up a reasoned argument on a sensible subject and people will look at it and say yes that needs to change.
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
4,955
Location
Four miles too far!
That's ok as long as they invite me. I think I could handle the course, just not sure I could cope with the a


Well said. The way that some of the posters have trivialised this discussion shows there is a clear race issue among members of this forum. I'm not calling anyone racist, just uninformed. Sadly a few conforming to the worst golfer stereotypes.
Surely those that are uninformed about this particular issue are those who have made wild assumptions over the naming of this event and similarly about the African American community being offended by that name.

None of us are going to be better informed on these issues by posts on a golf forum made by white people.
 

banjofred

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
258
Location
Knaresborough GC
I've never liked much of anything about the Masters. If someone offered me tickets to it I wouldn't use them. The golf course is amazing, but everything else about the place just bothers me. The name argument is just people looking for something to get mad about.
 

oxymoron

Club Champion
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Messages
198
That's ok as long as they invite me. I think I could handle the course, just not sure I could cope with the a


Well said. The way that some of the posters have trivialized this discussion shows there is a clear race issue among members of this forum. I'm not calling anyone racist, just uninformed. Sadly a few conforming to the worst golfer stereotypes.
Firstly i dont think you can possibly say the first bit in bold it is too much of a generalization and unfair to the forum members . If i say i like Ping shirts does it mean everyone here likes them ? Wild assumptions are products of uneducated guesses as you state later , that serves no one , indeed it looks like you have made a very wild and sweeping assertion in the line above and i think you need to take a moment before you accuse all and sundry of having racist issues.
 

sunshine

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
1,057
Firstly i dont think you can possibly say the first bit in bold it is too much of a generalization and unfair to the forum members . If i say i like Ping shirts does it mean everyone here likes them ? Wild assumptions are products of uneducated guesses as you state later , that serves no one , indeed it looks like you have made a very wild and sweeping assertion in the line above and i think you need to take a moment before you accuse all and sundry of having racist issues.
I'm not making sweeping generalisations. I don't believe that all members have a race issue - and I didn't type this. But I think some do... on reflection I should have been more explicit when typing the sentence. I believe that some members do not understand the issue, based on the posts on this thread, I'd hope it's a minority but I can't possibly quantify how many.
 

PhilTheFragger

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
11,737
Location
Aylesbury Bucks
I'm not making sweeping generalisations. I don't believe that all members have a race issue - and I didn't type this. But I think some do... on reflection I should have been more explicit when typing the sentence. I believe that some members do not understand the issue, based on the posts on this thread, I'd hope it's a minority but I can't possibly quantify how many.
How can you possibly have formulated that based on the posts on this thread?

If you ask a stupid question, you’ll get stupid answers, that’s what you have
 

sunshine

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
1,057
I disagree strongly, the discussion has been trivialised initially by some attention seeker looking for their 5 minutes of fame by trying to find a link between The Masters as it is now and BLM, it is a non issue

If you spout a ridiculous premise, then you will attract equally ridiculous and sarcastic responses

Put up a reasoned argument on a sensible subject and people will look at it and say yes that needs to change.
I disagree strongly. I believe there are people who genuinely believe the name the Masters has a link to slavery and white supremacy. Given the history of the club, the tournament and the area, I can understand why people would jump to that conclusion. Even though it's not correct :rolleyes:

I explained why I believed this in a post on this thread yesterday. I thought that was a reasoned argument, but maybe not.

It sounds ridiculous to you and me, but we are fans of golf. To an outsider it might not be obvious. At least he's started a conversation which hopefully all sides will learn from.
 

clubchamp98

Journeyman Pro
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
7,305
Location
Liverpool
I disagree strongly. I believe there are people who genuinely believe the name the Masters has a link to slavery and white supremacy. Given the history of the club, the tournament and the area, I can understand why people would jump to that conclusion. Even though it's not correct :rolleyes:

I explained why I believed this in a post on this thread yesterday. I thought that was a reasoned argument, but maybe not.

It sounds ridiculous to you and me, but we are fans of golf. To an outsider it might not be obvious. At least he's started a conversation which hopefully all sides will learn from.
The “it’s not correct” part is the problem!
People can say anything is racist ,but they need to back it up.
Arguing against an untruth dosnt make you racist as has been argued here.
Penny Lane in Liverpool had the street signs vandalised without a shred of evidence it was named after a slave trader.
Just because someone on Twitter said it was.
This sort of action will make things worse as it does trivialise the BLM message.
 

DanFST

Head Pro
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
786
Location
Canary Wharf
Bobby Jones and Clifford Roberts, the founders of the event, originally named the tournament, The Augusta National Invitational Tournament. When Roberts proposed the name, The Masters, Jones objected, believing the name was too presumptuous. However, five years later, Jones relented and the name was officially changed"

I think that if someone is looking at The Masters and thinking there is something wrong with the name, is seeing a problem that does not exist
That's the thing, Roberts was a racist. Is it not out of the realms of possibility that was the motive behind the importance of calling it The Masters? Especially when you look at events subsequently.

Eric Anders Lang - Race

That video makes me sad, anything (within the law) that stops stuff like this and keeps the conversation going is a good thing.
 

Lazkir

Head Pro
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
691
I disagree strongly. I believe there are people who genuinely believe the name the Masters has a link to slavery and white supremacy. Given the history of the club, the tournament and the area, I can understand why people would jump to that conclusion. Even though it's not correct :rolleyes:

I explained why I believed this in a post on this thread yesterday. I thought that was a reasoned argument, but maybe not.

It sounds ridiculous to you and me, but we are fans of golf. To an outsider it might not be obvious. At least he's started a conversation which hopefully all sides will learn from.

So you now acknowledge that the original premise is based on a falsehood.
Surely you can understand that most people on here were ridiculing the daft premise and not the real issue of racism?
 

Lazkir

Head Pro
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
691
That's the thing, Roberts was a racist. Is it not out of the realms of possibility that was the motive behind the importance of calling it The Masters? Especially when you look at events subsequently.

Eric Anders Lang - Race

That video makes me sad, anything (within the law) that stops stuff like this and keeps the conversation going is a good thing.
Surely that's just whataboutery?
Same as the Penny Lane thing.
Lets try and stick to known facts rather than uninformed assumptions and I think we'd all get a consensus.
 

drive4show

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Jul 16, 2011
Messages
13,108
Location
Poole, Dorset
This sort of action will make things worse as it does trivialise the BLM message.
Like many things these days, people jump on a bandwagon and it becomes a mouthpiece for every issue that is wrong with the world.
I have lost a lot of empathy for the whole BLM thing because like you say, it has become trivialised and it's supporters have done themselves no favours with all the reported incidents in the media.

Sure, there are many things that need to be changed but there are just as many things that don't need to be changed but just because one person flags it up doesn't mean it is an issue. Until there is enough support it is only an opinion.

As an aside, I have watched a lot of Masters re-runs on Youtube and seen big numbers of black people in the crowds so those guys don't appear to have an issue with it.
 

clubchamp98

Journeyman Pro
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
7,305
Location
Liverpool
Like many things these days, people jump on a bandwagon and it becomes a mouthpiece for every issue that is wrong with the world.
I have lost a lot of empathy for the whole BLM thing because like you say, it has become trivialised and it's supporters have done themselves no favours with all the reported incidents in the media.

Sure, there are many things that need to be changed but there are just as many things that don't need to be changed but just because one person flags it up doesn't mean it is an issue. Until there is enough support it is only an opinion.

As an aside, I have watched a lot of Masters re-runs on Youtube and seen big numbers of black people in the crowds so those guys don't appear to have an issue with it.
I agree , but for me the main thing is , if you are going to flag something up at least make sure it’s true and you have the proof.
That way you will get a reasonable chance of change.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Messages
472
Like many things these days, people jump on a bandwagon and it becomes a mouthpiece for every issue that is wrong with the world.
I have lost a lot of empathy for the whole BLM thing because like you say, it has become trivialised and it's supporters have done themselves no favours with all the reported incidents in the media.

Sure, there are many things that need to be changed but there are just as many things that don't need to be changed but just because one person flags it up doesn't mean it is an issue. Until there is enough support it is only an opinion.

As an aside, I have watched a lot of Masters re-runs on Youtube and seen big numbers of black people in the crowds so those guys don't appear to have an issue with it.
I would personally suggest that these bits are often more inflammatory pieces written by the media rather than the focus of BLM and other groups who have continued protesting peacefully in large numbers in the states with very little support. That seems still focused on police brutality, which potentially is also a wider issue on US police training and probably impact of gun laws too personally, and the inequality in the US in particular.

Saying that, i would be very frustrated for example in the case of Bristol and Edward Colston where there is clearly a direct link with the slave trade. Petitions, peaceful protests and approaches to the council have all fallen on deaf ears which date back over the last 4 years and beyond with articles in papers saying how Bristol hasn't reconciled their past. If it took that long just to remove a statue (which they potentially wouldn't if it hadn't been done for them) then if i was in a minority i wouldn't be hopeful of my chances of getting real change on discrimination - a lot of which I'm sure is subconscious bias.

So I can understand your frustration with it trivialising things, but a) I don't believe that's the majority and b) dismissing it completely or not engaging on the more important conversations because of it just ignores the issues.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Messages
472
That's the thing, Roberts was a racist. Is it not out of the realms of possibility that was the motive behind the importance of calling it The Masters? Especially when you look at events subsequently.

Eric Anders Lang - Race

That video makes me sad, anything (within the law) that stops stuff like this and keeps the conversation going is a good thing.
I know it's only a 7 min You Tube video but found it interesting and surely we need more public courses in the states being promoted given that private clubs seem exclusive there unlike the UK model predominantly. Quite like the NLU strapped series for this to give a different spin on golf courses over there.

Kid needs to work on his putting through although the shaft looks driver length for his height!
 

banjofred

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
258
Location
Knaresborough GC
I know it's only a 7 min You Tube video but found it interesting and surely we need more public courses in the states being promoted given that private clubs seem exclusive there unlike the UK model predominantly.
Most courses in the US are public courses. In the area I grew up in, there was only one private course within 50 miles? Not the same everywhere of course. Last time I looked the stats up there were a LOT more private courses than I thought there would be. Private courses in the US are definitely considered more "special" than here in the UK......but maybe not by as much as you think. Ask the general population here in the UK what they think about a "members" golf club......likely you will end up with it being considered a place for elitists.
 
Top