Ball in lake, took a drop.

delc

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That is the problem with that local rule. It should only be used as a last resort.
There are a couple of holes at our course (1st and 16th) where even if you drive onto the fairway the slope can take it towards semi-hidden water hazards. At these holes, if the ball is not found on the fairway we take it that it must have run into the WH. If the water is clear you can usually see and be able to retrieve your ball from the water hazard, so you know for certain that the ball has gone in there, but sometimes after heavy rain the water can get quite murky so you can't be sure. Is the assumption that if it is not on the fairway then it must be in the hazard still reasonable? There is no heavy rough around these water hazards and the special local rule does not apply at these holes btw.
 
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Colin L

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There are a couple of holes at our course (1st and 16th) where even if you drive onto the fairway the slope can take it towards semi-hidden water hazards. At these holes, if the ball is not found on the fairway we take it that it must have run into the WH. If the water is clear you can usually see and be able to retrieve your ball from the water hazard, so you know for certain that the ball has gone in there, but sometimes after heavy rain the water can get quite murky so you can't be sure. Is the assumption that if it is not on the fairway then it must be in the hazard still reasonable? There is no heavy rough around these water hazards and the special local rule does not apply at these holes btw.
I think you are conflating different matters in what you say. Let's take things separately.

1) Normally you can see your ball in the water and retrieve it, therefore it is known it was in the water hazard.
2) If the water is murky and you do not see you ball, it is no different from any other situation where you don't know it is in a water hazard and you need to consider whether you have virtual certainty.
3) If you have virtual certainty, say because everywhere else the ball could be is closely mown and your ball would be seen, that has nothing to do with the clarity or muddiness or even existence of the water.

Hope that clarifies rather than muddies the waters. :)
 

louise_a

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Just seen this thread and have a few thoughts,
firstly if you took a penalty drop, presumably near the hazard, then it couldn't be a provisional as a provisional must be played from the point of the original shot and also must be played before going forward to look for the ball.
Also, if you do play a provisional then surely by default you aren't certain that the ball is in the hazard.
thirdly If told by a FC that the ball went into the pond then surely that makes it virtually certain to you that the ball is in the hazard, so the dropped ball would be the ball in play.
 

delc

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Just seen this thread and have a few thoughts,
firstly if you took a penalty drop, presumably near the hazard, then it couldn't be a provisional as a provisional must be played from the point of the original shot and also must be played before going forward to look for the ball.
Also, if you do play a provisional then surely by default you aren't certain that the ball is in the hazard.
thirdly If told by a FC that the ball went into the pond then surely that makes it virtually certain to you that the ball is in the hazard, so the dropped ball would be the ball in play.
A provisional ball must essentially be played before you go forward to search. If it is already known or virtually certain that your original ball is in a water hazard, then you cannot play a provisional ball, and any 2nd ball played will become the ball in play, so the original ball has to be abandoned (even if found in the WH). What I am talking about is grey areas when, due to the water hazard being hidden, you cannot be sure that the original ball is in the hazard, but there is a reasonable probability that it is.
 
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Colin L

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...... What I am talking about is grey areas when, due to the water hazard being hidden, you cannot be sure that the original ball is in the hazard, but there is a reasonable probability that it is.
For goodness' sake Del, there is nothing grey about that area. If there is a reasonable probability that your ball is in a water hazard, there is also a reasonable possibility it isn't. If you think you might not find it, play a provisional. Simple, straightforward, black or white but not grey. You are making a big deal out of nothing.

I'm never sure in conversations like these whether my giddiness is caused by going round in circles or banging my head against something. :)
 

delc

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For goodness' sake Del, there is nothing grey about that area. If there is a reasonable probability that your ball is in a water hazard, there is also a reasonable possibility it isn't. If you think you might not find it, play a provisional. Simple, straightforward, black or white but not grey. You are making a big deal out of nothing.

I'm never sure in conversations like these whether my giddiness is caused by going round in circles or banging my head against something. :)
This issue seems to cause problems at our course because of the locations of some of our lateral water hazards, I think that generally speaking, members will always assume that the ball has gone in if it is not found outside the hazard and take a penalty drop alongside the WH or back along the line. They rarely play provisional balls,
 
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Played 2, dropped 3, hit for 4 - two shot penalty for playing from the wrong place, second ball (on the green?) now in play putting for a 7!
Decision 26 1/3.
 
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