Ball in lake, took a drop.

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trevor

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My 2nd shot to the green was over a tree and over a lake, about 140 yds. I didn't see the ball land because of the tree but one of the other players in the 4 ball said my ball had gone in the lake. A quick look in and it was deep and dirty so took a drop for a penalty, then walked round the water and saw my ball on the grass at the other side so hit that onto the green for a 5. Then the person who had told me it was in the water said it couldn't count as I hadn't declared the 2nd as a provisional. But why would I have done after he had told me it was lost. I suppose he was right but it doesn't seem fair.
 

bladeplayer

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My 2nd shot to the green was over a tree and over a lake, about 140 yds. I didn't see the ball land because of the tree but one of the other players in the 4 ball said my ball had gone in the lake. A quick look in and it was deep and dirty so took a drop for a penalty, then walked round the water and saw my ball on the grass at the other side so hit that onto the green for a 5. Then the person who had told me it was in the water said it couldn't count as I hadn't declared the 2nd as a provisional. But why would I have done after he had told me it was lost. I suppose he was right but it doesn't seem fair.

If it was match play we would be entering into the wrong information given area ,, heavens above we don't need that again ha

Ok as lousy as it seems when you put the second ball in play , the first ball is no longer relevant .. technically a lost ball ..
 

Foxholer

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Bladeplayer is correct.

But worth noting...Unless an extremely rarely used Local Rule is in place, you cannot play a Provisional for a ball in a Water Hazard,

So while your FC/Opponent was correct about your 2nd ball now being the ball in play, his reasoning why was a bit wrong!
 

pauldj42

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My 2nd shot to the green was over a tree and over a lake, about 140 yds. I didn't see the ball land because of the tree but one of the other players in the 4 ball said my ball had gone in the lake. A quick look in and it was deep and dirty so took a drop for a penalty, then walked round the water and saw my ball on the grass at the other side so hit that onto the green for a 5. Then the person who had told me it was in the water said it couldn't count as I hadn't declared the 2nd as a provisional. But why would I have done after he had told me it was lost. I suppose he was right but it doesn't seem fair.
Not disputing anything stated, just confused, were was your second ball for 4 and do you mean you played the original ball scoring 5 on the hole? Irrelevant to the replies, just interested.
 

bladeplayer

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Not disputing anything stated, just confused, were was your second ball for 4 and do you mean you played the original ball scoring 5 on the hole? Irrelevant to the replies, just interested.
I had typed the same question at end of my post (scary) & deleted it as I came to conclusion as you (scarier ha), he chipped on the original & 2 putted for a 5 (I think)
 

delc

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My 2nd shot to the green was over a tree and over a lake, about 140 yds. I didn't see the ball land because of the tree but one of the other players in the 4 ball said my ball had gone in the lake. A quick look in and it was deep and dirty so took a drop for a penalty, then walked round the water and saw my ball on the grass at the other side so hit that onto the green for a 5. Then the person who had told me it was in the water said it couldn't count as I hadn't declared the 2nd as a provisional. But why would I have done after he had told me it was lost. I suppose he was right but it doesn't seem fair.
Our course has several hidden or partially hidden water hazards, so I agree the rules are not very satisfactory on this issue. If you know or are virtually certain that your ball is in a water hazard, then walk up and take a penalty drop, no problem. If you are not sure then you are entitled to play a provisional ball, so if you find your original ball outside the hazard you can continue without penalty. If you are not sure that it entered the water hazard, but you can't find it, it is a lost ball and you have no option but to walk back and play another ball from the previous spot under penalty of stroke and distance. Any provisional ball has to be abandoned. Surely it would be more sensible, and save time, if you were allowed to continue with the provisional as it has already incurred a stroke and distance penalty!
 
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pogle

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Our course has several hidden or partially hidden water hazards, so I agree the rules are not very satisfactory on this issue. If you know or are virtually certain that your ball is in a water hazard, then walk up and take a penalty drop, no problem. If you are not sure then you are entitled to play a provisional ball, so if you find your original ball outside the hazard you can continue without penalty. If you are not sure that it entered the water hazard, but you can't find it, it is a lost ball and you have no option but to walk back and play another ball from the previous spot under penalty of stroke and distance. Any provisional ball has to be abandoned. Surely it would be more sensible, and save time, if you were allowed to continue with the provisional as it has already incurred a stroke and distance penalty!
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If your ball may be lost or OOB outside a water hazard then you're entitled to play a provisional. If you then obtain knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, then the prov ball is out of play and you proceed under the water hazard rule. If you don't find the original ball or get that confirmation that the ball is in the water hazard, then your original ball is lost and you continue with the provisional.

Or have I misunderstood what you wrote?
 

delc

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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If your ball may be lost or OOB outside a water hazard then you're entitled to play a provisional. If you then obtain knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, then the prov ball is out of play and you proceed under the water hazard rule. If you don't find the original ball or get that confirmation that the ball is in the water hazard, then your original ball is lost and you continue with the provisional.

Or have I misunderstood what you wrote?
The problem comes if you are not sure, or virtually certain, that the original ball has gone into a water hazard, but you can't find it outside the hazard either, so it's a lost ball. This is a situation that happens quite frequently at our club, which has several hidden or partially hidden water hazards. Then even if you have played a provisional ball, you have to abandon it and walk back to the tee and play 3 off the tee. As you have already put a second (provisional) ball into play under stroke and distance penalty, this just seems like a total waste of time to me!
 
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rulefan

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Then even if you have played a provisional ball, you have to abandon it and walk back to the tee and play 3 off the tee.
Why ?
If you can't find it anywhere it is lost. Continue with the provisional.

If you now know it is in the WH play under rule 26.
 

delc

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Why ?
If you can't find it anywhere it is lost. Continue with the provisional.

If you now know it is in the WH play under rule 26.
Yes, but in the circumstances I described, you often can't be sure if the original ball is in the water hazard or not. Easy case is if you find the ball in the WH, or a witness who saw it go in. In which case take a penalty drop as per the rules. Also easy if you find the original ball outside the WH, when you just continue with it. If there is knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, then you are not allowed to play a provisional ball. Any second ball becomes the ball in play.
 
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pogle

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Yes, but in the circumstances I described, you often can't be sure if the original ball is in the water hazard or not. Easy case is if you find the ball in the WH, or a witness who saw it go in. In which case take a penalty drop as per the rules. Also easy if you find the original ball outside the WH, when you just continue with it. If there is knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, then you are not allowed to play a provisional ball. Any second ball becomes the ball in play.
Delc - you're mistaken. If you play a provisional because the ball may be lost outside the hazard then if you don't get knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard you must treat you original ball as lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play. If this were not the case, why on earth would you play a provisional in the first place?
 

rosecott

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Yes, but in the circumstances I described, you often can't be sure if the original ball is in the water hazard or not. Easy case is if you find the ball in the WH, or a witness who saw it go in. In which case take a penalty drop as per the rules. Also easy if you find the original ball outside the WH, when you just continue with it. If there is knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, then you are not allowed to play a provisional ball. Any second ball becomes the ball in play.
You originally said that the water hazards were hidden or partially hidden, and you have just said again that you can't be sure if the ball is in the water hazard or not. The playing of a provisional ball is therefore within the rules. Then, after a search does not find the ball and there is no evidence of it entering the water hazard (the lack of evidence justified the provisional), the provisional becomes the ball in play if the 5-minute search period has elapsed. Why would the player have to return to the tee?
 

delc

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Start again. You can play a provisional ball if you believe your original ball my be lost or OOB. You can't play a provisional ball if you know or are virtually certain that your ball has entered a water hazard. Any second ball will become the ball in play. With hidden water hazards it is often difficult to tell if your ball is in it or not, so how do you proceed, unless the special local rule allowing a provisional ball is in place?
 

rosecott

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Start again. You can play a provisional ball if you believe your original ball my be lost or OOB. You can't play a provisional ball if you know or are virtually certain that your ball has entered a water hazard. Any second ball will become the ball in play. With hidden water hazards it is often difficult to tell if your ball is in it or not, so how do you proceed, unless the special local rule allowing a provisional ball is in place?
What special local rule?

The rules of golf are quite clear and specific on this issue, so there is no need for any local rule. Read my last post again.
 

rosecott

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Have a look under Appendix I, part A 2.b
Thank you - got it now, but can't really see the need for it if there are other areas near the water hazard in which the ball may be lost. If there is a water hazard and no rough or trees anywhere within its vicinity, then there could be a need.
 

Foxholer

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The problem comes if you are not sure, or virtually certain, that the original ball has gone into a water hazard, but you can't find it outside the hazard either, so it's a lost ball. This is a situation that happens quite frequently at our club, which has several hidden or partially hidden water hazards. Then even if you have played a provisional ball, you have to abandon it and walk back to the tee and play 3 off the tee. As you have already put a second (provisional) ball into play under stroke and distance penalty, this just seems like a total waste of time to me!
There was also great potential for this at my last club, where there was a slope with long grass down to a water hazard. The gap from the top of the hill was sufficient that there was often uncertainty as to whether the ball went into the hazard or not - and when it subsequently couldn't be found, was it simply lost! The simple solution was to extend the line of the hazard to the top of the hill/start of long rough so that there was no doubt about whether it went into the hazard or not. If the ball was found (or not), then it could be played (or relief taken) as per normal hazard rules.

@Rosecott. I've seen that LR applied at 1 course/hole - the 3rd at Thorndon Park, a rather nice course in Essex. The tee shot is over rather large and the walk around takes considerable time. There is a narrow strip of semi-rough then fairway on the other side. So if a ball that may have not made it over (or rolled back into) the hazard is not visible then KoVC applies about where it is - in the hazard!
 

rulefan

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Start again. You can play a provisional ball if you believe your original ball my be lost or OOB.
Correct
You can't play a provisional ball if you know or are virtually certain that your ball has entered a water hazard.
Correct

You said the water hazards were hidden or partially hidden. So the latter case does not apply.

If you subsequently discover the ball is OOB, the provisional becomes the ball in play.
If you subsequently determine that you know or are virtually certain the ball is in the WH, you must abandon the provisional and player under the WH rule
If you can't find the ball anywhere, you continue with the provisional.
 

delc

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The water hazard rules are easy to apply if the whole of the water hazard is in view from the tee, or the position from which the previous shot was played, or if you have spotters. The ball heads towards the WH, a splash is seen, and then you know or are virtually certain that the ball is in there. More difficult if trees or the lie of the land obscures the view of it, which is the case at our course. We do have the special local rule at one of holes, the par-3 15th, where there is a pond hidden in a dip to the right of the green. Unfortunately the majority of our members don't seem to understand it, or even know about it.

The point about walking back is that if it is decided that the ball is in the WH, your options are to drop back down the line of the point of entry and the flag, or to play another shot from the previous position, plus dropping within 2 club lengths of the point of entry if it's a lateral WH. Going back to the tee seems a bit pointless if you have already played a provisional from there, as the nett effect on your score (stroke and distance penalty) will be the same. I will always take a drop if that's feasible because it will leave me closer to the hole. Obviously not if it's into bushes or deep rough though!
 
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