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Thread: Trump and NATO

  1. #1
    Major Champion SwingsitlikeHogan's Avatar
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    Trump and NATO

    Seems like the running Trump thread has been closed...and so on Trump and his attitude to NATO

    Democratic Senator Jack Reed yesterday having to teach the PotUS on the importance of NATO, given Trump's recent tweets and pronouncements on NATO whilst on the way to the NATO summit, and Reed goes on to emphasise the threat that Russia poses - noting that Putin is not "and I quote - fine" (Reeds words)

    And on the issue of NATO funding Reed tells the PotUS.

    NATO - "is in the US national interest and not because other countries are paying us for protection. We must look at the whole picture of allied contributions to the NATO operations" - and Reed then goes on to debunk Trump's complaints in respect of the contributions of the NATO, and recognises the NATO concerns over Trump having a 1:1 with Putin.

    The motion offering strong support for NATO was passed by the Senate by 97 votes to 2 (with the two being the notional libertarians who dislike all such things).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJDTcAH0f-g

    Meanwhile back in Europe European Council president Donald Tusk rebukes Trump

    “Dear America, appreciate your allies,” European Council President Donald Tusk said Tuesday. “After all, you don’t have that many.”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b0c523e263ee99
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  2. #2
    Journeyman Pro maxfli65's Avatar
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    Not sure how strong NATO really is, has it ever been truly tested?

    When we fought the Argies in Falklands I recall the French were selling them exocet missiles. No real loyalty, it's always about money.

    If the Russians steamed into Estonia for example (which is a NATO member) as they did Crimea and east Ukraine, would NATO escalate to a full out war to drive them out? I have my doubts.

    We do have the financial advantage of course, between US/Canada/Germany/France/UK/Netherlands and rest etc our combined defence spending dwarves what the Russians can spend. Putin has just 1 aircraft carrier...............but a shedload of nuclear missiles and a lot of manpower!

    Trump is possibly correct that it's too easy to just lean on America to sort out any problems, all member states should at least meet the 2% of GDP defence spending I think for parity.

    NATO is at the mercy of whatever the US president at the time thinks though. That's a weakness.

  3. #3
    Journeyman Pro IanM's Avatar
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    Good points, most members are ok with it, as long as the US keeps paying.

    Not sure what right Tusk has to speak, isn't he just the chair of the Regional Chamber of Commerce? (see Brexit threads, the EU hasn't taken any sovereignty, it's just about trade! :-) )

    I always laugh when I hear about objections to the "put America first" strapline …. I'd have thought that was line-one of the Job Description of any head of state.
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    NATO has run it's course......…USA and 'America First' says it all, they will not get involved in any conflict involving European countries.
    There should be a standing EU Army, similar to NATO [but without the Americans] to support European interests.

  5. #5
    Major Champion SwingsitlikeHogan's Avatar
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by maxfli65 View Post
    Not sure how strong NATO really is, has it ever been truly tested?

    When we fought the Argies in Falklands I recall the French were selling them exocet missiles. No real loyalty, it's always about money.

    If the Russians steamed into Estonia for example (which is a NATO member) as they did Crimea and east Ukraine, would NATO escalate to a full out war to drive them out? I have my doubts.

    We do have the financial advantage of course, between US/Canada/Germany/France/UK/Netherlands and rest etc our combined defence spending dwarves what the Russians can spend. Putin has just 1 aircraft carrier...............but a shedload of nuclear missiles and a lot of manpower!

    Trump is possibly correct that it's too easy to just lean on America to sort out any problems, all member states should at least meet the 2% of GDP defence spending I think for parity.

    NATO is at the mercy of whatever the US president at the time thinks though. That's a weakness.
    NATO invoked Article 5 for the first time in its history after the 9/11 terrorist attacks against the United States - and servicemen from NATO allies of the USA lost their lives on the back of that.

    The words of the Democratic party Senator and the vote in the Senate do not suggest a huge weakness to the whims of the President.

    Many US commentators and the Senator also pointed out how the US's allies contribute in other ways to NATO other than through the 2% target - the fact that European countries will host and support US military installations was not lost on the Senator. As he said...

    "...is in the US national interest and not because other countries are paying us for protection. We must look at the whole picture of allied contributions to the NATO operations"
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  6. #6
    Major Champion SwingsitlikeHogan's Avatar
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Doon frae Troon View Post
    NATO has run it's course......…USA and 'America First' says it all, they will not get involved in any conflict involving European countries.
    There should be a standing EU Army, similar to NATO [but without the Americans] to support European interests.
    Which might seem logical but is an anathema to anti-EU ideologues and many who voted to leave the EU - even though at the same time they will be supporting Trump's view of NATO and it's non-value. I believe this sort of thinking is called cognitive dissonance.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  7. #7
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Doon frae Troon View Post
    NATO has run it's course......…USA and 'America First' says it all, they will not get involved in any conflict involving European countries.
    There should be a standing EU Army, similar to NATO [but without the Americans] to support European interests.
    ER without stating the obvious, the people of this fine nation voted to get out of the EU. So how do you envisage us being in summat ( an eu army ) when we want to get out of it.

  8. #8
    Tour Winner Khamelion's Avatar
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    I think I heard this correct, but Trump was having a whine about why the Americans pay in to NATO to support the alliance, when countries like Germany get a lot of their oil from Russia, his argument being we are paying to support and keep you safe, yet you spend money to buy Oil from effectively someone who is our enemy or would be enemy.

    If that is correct he has a point,

    but

    If for arguments sake the EU countries in NATO rejected anything from Russia and their member states and chose to buy from solely NATO countries instead, isn't he just going to start the cold war all over again. The armed forces growing in size along with border tensions.

  9. #9
    Major Champion SwingsitlikeHogan's Avatar
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion View Post
    I think I heard this correct, but Trump was having a whine about why the Americans pay in to NATO to support the alliance, when countries like Germany get a lot of their oil from Russia, his argument being we are paying to support and keep you safe, yet you spend money to buy Oil from effectively someone who is our enemy or would be enemy.

    If that is correct he has a point,

    but

    If for arguments sake the EU countries in NATO rejected anything from Russia and their member states and chose to buy from solely NATO countries instead, isn't he just going to start the cold war all over again. The armed forces growing in size along with border tensions.
    ...and I am a little baffled that he would want Germany upping it's military game significantly in the face of resurgent right wing / fascist feelings in Germany and his wish to see the EU disintegrate....
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  10. #10
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    Re: Trump and NATO

    I don't recall a thread along similar lines when Obama criticised the other NATO members for not meeting the 2% target and when he called them complacent for failing to meet the target - not a whimper then about all the other contributions European countries make to NATO. Or when he suggested that if Greece during the height of its' problems could meet the target then other countries should as well. Or when he called European states "free riders" for wanting America to act in North Africa without as he put it putting any "skin in the game".

    But I guess that because it's Trump some people aren't happy. Looks almost as though it's a case of playing the man not the ball, something which is very prevalent on the forum in general.

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