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  1. #21
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    You are not entitled to a full 1cl. The rule only says within 1cl.

  2. #22
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    ... Is the 1 club length beyond the NPR something the rules give us - and so something that we can use to define our NPR - I go back down the track until I have a NPR one club length from the boudary fence? ...

    Sorry again - still not quite got it nailed it in my head...

    The 1 clublength is irrelevant to establishing the location of the NPOR. The NPOR is found as defined in the definitions of the rules. The 1 CL only becomes relevant after the NPOR has been identified - in that the player has to drop the ball within 1 CL of the NOPR - ie no more than 1 CL away from it. There is no requirement to drop at the full distance of 1 CL - and if the full distance is not available, then thats just life and you either use what is available - or don't take the relief.

    Remember, the relief from immovable obstructions is optional - no-one is making you take relief and it's up to you to decide whether the relief available is actually more advantageous to you than the existing lie. (And we all know that in some circumstances it isn't! )
    Handicap Challenge - 19.3 (12 Aug)
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  3. #23
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by backwoodsman View Post
    The 1 clublength is irrelevant to establishing the location of the NPOR. The NPOR is found as defined in the definitions of the rules. The 1 CL only becomes relevant after the NPOR has been identified - in that the player has to drop the ball within 1 CL of the NOPR - ie no more than 1 CL away from it. There is no requirement to drop at the full distance of 1 CL - and if the full distance is not available, then thats just life and you either use what is available - or don't take the relief.

    Remember, the relief from immovable obstructions is optional - no-one is making you take relief and it's up to you to decide whether the relief available is actually more advantageous to you than the existing lie. (And we all know that in some circumstances it isn't! )
    I got that but @duncan said

    Yes, the NPR will be exactly where you can stand clear of the track and drop the ball in bounds - but you then have a 1 club distance from that point (as I think I referenced earlier in this context) to create some wriggle room.


    And so putting your's and Duncan's together, then my NPR will be bang up against the edge of the boundary fence at the point I can take a stance off the track and make a proper address - and my one club length from that point can only be backwards - and sure enough - dropping backwards within one club length will be not nearer the hole. I have no 'right' under the rule for relief from the track to be able to identify the NPR away from boundary fence under the one club length provision. And that would seem to be the case because the NPR is a singe point - and 'within one club length' is not definitive and so therefore cannot be a determining factor for the NPR.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  4. #24
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Not sure if I'm clouding the issue now, or going over old ground but hey ho ....

    It isnt always the case that you can or must be able to physically take your stance with a ball at the NPOR.

    In your case, with right handed player, trying to drop off right hand side of path, with oob very close, yes, it will alway be the case that the feet will be clear of the path and one can take a stance. Because, if the verge were too narrow and the notional ball position would be OOB before the stance got clear of the path, then by definition, it cannot be NPOR. NPOR will be further back or possibly over other side of path. But if there is just enough room to get both ball and stance off the path, with ball only just in bounds, then it is NPOR regardless of whether you can make a swing or not.

    But consider the same scenario on the left side of path.The player needs to "back away from the path" until both the stance and the ball are clear of the path. With a very narrow verge it may be that the notional stance position becomes hindered by the OOB fence before the ball position is clear of the path. There is no requirement that you must be able to take that stance . The NPOR is the position at which both the ball, and the notional stance, are clear of the path. If the notional stance is physically impossible to achieve because of the fence, then thats just bad luck. It is still NPOR (as illustrated in decision 25-1b/2). So, it isn't alway the case that you are able to take a stance

    As i say - hope this not repeating or clouding things...
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  5. #25
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    If the gap between the path and the OOB line is say 18" but the right handed player needs 24" to get the npr (which includes stance and swing, then the npr cannot be in that area.

    In my diagram, the player must either move back towards the tee where the gap gets wide enough or cgo to the left of the path, depending on which is nearer the ball

    For a left handed player 24-2b/3.5 applies and he would drop in the 18" gap. He could then take relief for a RH stroke played forwards or a LH stroke played backwards. Neither would be inappropriate.

  6. #26
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by backwoodsman View Post
    Not sure if I'm clouding the issue now, or going over old ground but hey ho ....

    It isnt always the case that you can or must be able to physically take your stance with a ball at the NPOR.

    In your case, with right handed player, trying to drop off right hand side of path, with oob very close, yes, it will alway be the case that the feet will be clear of the path and one can take a stance. Because, if the verge were too narrow and the notional ball position would be OOB before the stance got clear of the path, then by definition, it cannot be NPOR. NPOR will be further back or possibly over other side of path. But if there is just enough room to get both ball and stance off the path, with ball only just in bounds, then it is NPOR regardless of whether you can make a swing or not.

    But consider the same scenario on the left side of path.The player needs to "back away from the path" until both the stance and the ball are clear of the path. With a very narrow verge it may be that the notional stance position becomes hindered by the OOB fence before the ball position is clear of the path. There is no requirement that you must be able to take that stance . The NPOR is the position at which both the ball, and the notional stance, are clear of the path. If the notional stance is physically impossible to achieve because of the fence, then thats just bad luck. It is still NPOR (as illustrated in decision 25-1b/2). So, it isn't alway the case that you are able to take a stance

    As i say - hope this not repeating or clouding things...
    OK - this I get - and it clearly means that my NPR is right up against the out of bounds line - in my case a fence. So my NPR is by definition slap bang against the fence. That I cannot drop within one club length of it other than backwards is how it is. In fact by dropping backwards - towards the tee - and behind my NPR - I can try and find a place that will be clear of the fence from where I'll be able to hit it (as long as ball ends up not nearer the hole than where it sat on the track)

    Assuming the above is correct. Once I have marked my NPR against the fence and then dropped backwards within one club length - can I take a stance on the track to address my ball at the place it ended after I dropped it. I see identifying my NPR and dropping my ball within one club length as me taking relief. What happens subsequently is a new situation. If I now find myself standing on the track addressing my ball on the verge it becomes my choice as to whether or not to play it as it now lies - or take further relief from the track. And I can continue in this manner as many times as I want.
    Last edited by SwingsitlikeHogan; 13-Jul-2018 at 09:48.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  7. #27
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by rulefan View Post
    If the gap between the path and the OOB line is say 18" but the right handed player needs 24" to get the npr (which includes stance and swing, then the npr cannot be in that area.

    In my diagram, the player must either move back towards the tee where the gap gets wide enough or cgo to the left of the path, depending on which is nearer the ball

    For a left handed player 24-2b/3.5 applies and he would drop in the 18" gap. He could then take relief for a RH stroke played forwards or a LH stroke played backwards. Neither would be inappropriate.
    Presumably, because the leftie can't play a "normal shot" due to the OOB fence, so he decides on a more unusual shot and his stance for this different stroke is again impeded by the path ??

    Let's say he choose to play right handed. I assume he then has to find the NPOR for the intended right handed shot? Having done so, and having dropped the ball, if he then finds there is room to play his normal L/H stroke, presumably he's good to go?
    Handicap Challenge - 19.3 (12 Aug)
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  8. #28
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    yes

  9. #29
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    I got that but @duncan said

    Yes, the NPR will be exactly where you can stand clear of the track and drop the ball in bounds - but you then have a 1 club distance from that point (as I think I referenced earlier in this context) to create some wriggle room.


    And so putting your's and Duncan's together, then my NPR will be bang up against the edge of the boundary fence at the point I can take a stance off the track and make a proper address - and my one club length from that point can only be backwards - and sure enough - dropping backwards within one club length will be not nearer the hole. I have no 'right' under the rule for relief from the track to be able to identify the NPR away from boundary fence under the one club length provision. And that would seem to be the case because the NPR is a singe point - and 'within one club length' is not definitive and so therefore cannot be a determining factor for the NPR.
    I think you are getting there....

    Without (hopefully, fingers crossed etc) confusing things; if you had decided that the appropriate stroke from the path would have been with a 3 wood, you might drop slightly inside the fence and switch to a shorter club, or modify your natural stance, both of which would have to enable you to still keep your stance clear of the obstruction.
    some metal woods,
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    Pick up balls....

    12.2 and moving the wrong way again...

  10. #30
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by duncan mackie View Post
    I think you are getting there....

    Without (hopefully, fingers crossed etc) confusing things; if you had decided that the appropriate stroke from the path would have been with a 3 wood, you might drop slightly inside the fence and switch to a shorter club, or modify your natural stance, both of which would have to enable you to still keep your stance clear of the obstruction.
    I can do that deliberately? I can absolutely see how I could claim I'd hit a wood were the track not there - and then use that club to go back down the track to the point where I can take a stance with the ball inbounds. And mark the position (against the fence) as my NPR. I can then drop inside (a little closer to the track) and 'then' choose to play a shorter shafted club.

    That seems to imply - taking this scenario - that after I have dropped my ball closer to the track it is not a valid drop if I have to stand on the track to address the ball? It is only a valid drop if I take a shorter shafted club with which to address it.

    Is the relief over as soon as the ball is dropped and comes to rest within one club length and not nearer the hole. So if I then address the ball standing on the track I am in a NEW relief situation,
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

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