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  1. #11
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    SwingsitlikeHogan
    Can you please clarify.
    Are the track and boundary to the left or right of the fairway? Are you left or right handed? Is the boundary a physical wall, hedge or wall etc or can you stand on the OOB ground?

  2. #12
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by backwoodsman View Post
    Ps. I note that in SiLH's second post he refers to a situation of the ball being out of bounds were he to stand at the nearest point of relief.

    Remember that NPOR refers to the position at which the ball would lie - not the position where where you place your feet.
    This is what I was missing - I was thinking that the NPR was where I stand. Now I'm guessing that in many situations it IS - but by thinking it was it is that which has confused me.

    And for @rulefan...

    So on the basis that my NPR is the ball position - and NOT where I take my stance - in my scenarios (where track and course boundary fence run down rhs of hole; I am right handed and the distance from the track right hand edge (facing toward the green) to the out of bounds fence is less than two feet. I can't stand out of bounds - the boundary is a fence.

    With my back to the track my NPR is out of bounds. My NPR then becomes that point where my ball will remain in bounds as I turn clock-wise (towards facing the tee). At some point I will be able to take a stance and mark a ball position just inside the boundary fence. Any other possible NPR where I take a stance and can drop the ball in bounds is - in the scenario - going to be further from the original ball position on the track. So that ball position against the fence is my NPR. I could then drop my ball at the NPR - just inside the boundary fence - and take a stance to hit it from there if I so chose - even though the ball would likely be very close to the fence (with a bit of luck it might have bounced a short distance away from it)

    The second scenario is where my NPR is in bounds but I don't have one club length 'beyond it' as one club length takes me out of bounds. That I believe is tough, and irrelevant in respect of the NPR.
    Last edited by SwingsitlikeHogan; 11-Jul-2018 at 15:36.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  3. #13
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by azazel View Post
    If you switched to play left handed after the first drop on the boundary side, and then got relief for the track interfering with your stance and therefore dropped again on the "inside" of the track, are you then bound to play left handed since playing right handed at the point would mean you hadn't taken full relief from the track as you'd be standing on it to play right handed? Or could you switch back to right handed and seek further relief?

    I think I'd be playing from the track first time round
    The latter; and in most cases you would then have your (final....) npr even further 'inside'
    some metal woods,
    any old irons,
    Pick up balls....

    12.2 and moving the wrong way again...

  4. #14
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    This is what I was missing - I was thinking that the NPR was where I stand. Now I'm guessing that in many situations it IS - but by thinking it was it is that which has confused me.

    And for @rulefan...

    So on the basis that my NPR is the ball position - and NOT where I take my stance - in my scenarios (where track and course boundary fence run down rhs of hole; I am right handed and the distance from the track right hand edge (facing toward the green) to the out of bounds fence is less than two feet. I can't stand out of bounds - the boundary is a fence.

    With my back to the track my NPR is out of bounds. My NPR then becomes that point where my ball will remain in bounds as I turn clock-wise (towards facing the tee). At some point I will be able to take a stance and mark a ball position just inside the boundary fence. Any other possible NPR where I take a stance and can drop the ball in bounds is - in the scenario - going to be further from the original ball position on the track. So that ball position against the fence is my NPR. I could then drop my ball at the NPR - just inside the boundary fence - and take a stance to hit it from there if I so chose - even though the ball would likely be very close to the fence (with a bit of luck it might have bounced a short distance away from it)
    If this is a simple case of a right side boundary and track it's really very simple.

    Based on your original post, where the area between the track and the boundary is increasing as you progress back towards the tee, you will just find a point where you are able to both drop the ball in bounds and have your stance clear of the track. Depending on the lay of the land this may be quite a long way from the original ball position.
    You will also have a valid point on the left hand side of the track.
    Whichever of the two is the shortest distance to the original ball position is the NPR.

    If you are right handed and the boundary is to the right, I don't understand how standing OOB comes into things at all

    Slightly picky but you will have to have gone your clublength further back towards the tee to get any scope for the ball to bounce away from the fence from your point of relief otherwise it wouldn't have been the npr etc etc
    Last edited by duncan mackie; 11-Jul-2018 at 16:47.
    some metal woods,
    any old irons,
    Pick up balls....

    12.2 and moving the wrong way again...

  5. #15
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Does this represent the situation? X and Y represent the situation described by Duncan. The actual npr depends on just where the ball is along the path
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  6. #16
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by rulefan View Post
    Does this represent the situation? X and Y represent the situation described by Duncan. The actual npr depends on just where the ball is along the path
    That's how I pictured it from the words....hole to the left of the page, tee back to the right.

    The more complicated version already posted earlier applying to the mirror situation with the track and boundary on the left (for a right hander)
    some metal woods,
    any old irons,
    Pick up balls....

    12.2 and moving the wrong way again...

  7. #17
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by rulefan View Post
    Does this represent the situation? X and Y represent the situation described by Duncan. The actual npr depends on just where the ball is along the path
    Yes.

    Duncan has clarified things for me. However...(sorry) one further clarification.

    From what I now understand - the nearest place off the track that I can stand is in itself irrelevant in the context of the NPR?

    If the nearest point off the track that I can stand does not enable me to find a NPR in bounds - then that stance position has no further relevance in identified my NPR? So I need not continue to stand at that point and rotate until I find point in-bounds - as that point would have me not taking a normal address position to play toward the green - as I would have been doing were the track not there.

    And so - in my scenario (as illustrated by @rulefan) I simply go back (down the track) towards the tee until I am at a place where I have a point that I can BOTH drop my ball in bounds and take a stance to address it normally to take the shot I would have been playing had the track not been there.

    Then having found a NPR, how close to the fence is that NPR? Is it in fact literally just inside the boundary fence? And so when I drop my ball it might sit right against the boundary fence but in bounds - and that would just be tough. If I can take a stance, address and hit the ball, then it is up to me whether I want to play my ball sitting so close to the boundary fence.

    Note that standing OoB is not something I had raised - though I was asked. But as asked - in general can I stand OoB to play a shot. I've never had to ask myself that question when playing - eiter in respect of myself or a playing companion.

    Sorry for being so picky and pedantic.
    Last edited by SwingsitlikeHogan; 12-Jul-2018 at 09:18.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  8. #18
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    Yes.

    Duncan has clarified things for me. However...(sorry) one further clarification.

    From what I now understand - the nearest place off the track that I can stand is in itself irrelevant in the context of the NPR?

    If the nearest point off the track that I can stand does not enable me to find a NPR in bounds - then that stance position has no further relevance in identified my NPR? So I need not continue to stand at that point and rotate until I find point in-bounds - as that point would have me not taking a normal address position to play toward the green - as I would have been doing were the track not there.

    And so - in my scenario (as illustrated by @rulefan) I simply go back (down the track) towards the tee until I am at a place where I have a point that I can BOTH drop my ball in bounds and take a stance to address it normally to take the shot I would have been playing had the track not been there.

    Then having found a NPR, how close to the fence is that NPR? Is it in fact literally just inside the boundary fence? And so when I drop my ball it might sit right against the boundary fence but in bounds - and that would just be tough. If I can take a stance, address and hit the ball, then it is up to me whether I want to play my ball sitting so close to the boundary fence.

    Note that standing OoB is not something I had raised - though I was asked. But as asked - in general can I stand OoB to play a shot. I've never had to ask myself that question when playing - eiter in respect of myself or a playing companion.

    Sorry for being so picky and pedantic.
    Don't be sorry - I can see why there is confusion despite my earlier observation that it's simple.

    No, the ability to take your stance clear of the obstruction (track here) is integral to the establishment of the NPR....which is why you have to go back (in this instance) to find a valid point on that side of the track.
    Yes, the NPR will be exactly where you can stand clear of the track and drop the ball in bounds - but you then have a 1 club distance from that point (as I think I referenced earlier in this context) to create some wriggle room.
    Obviously if the valid relief point on the other side of the track is nearer to the original position of the ball things are better!

    Situations like this are classic examples of why you shouldn't pick up your ball from the track until you are sure you have a better option!
    some metal woods,
    any old irons,
    Pick up balls....

    12.2 and moving the wrong way again...

  9. #19
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by duncan mackie View Post
    Situations like this are classic examples of why you shouldn't pick up your ball from the track until you are sure you have a better option!
    I second that.

  10. #20
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by duncan mackie View Post
    Don't be sorry - I can see why there is confusion despite my earlier observation that it's simple.

    No, the ability to take your stance clear of the obstruction (track here) is integral to the establishment of the NPR....which is why you have to go back (in this instance) to find a valid point on that side of the track.
    Yes, the NPR will be exactly where you can stand clear of the track and drop the ball in bounds - but you then have a 1 club distance from that point (as I think I referenced earlier in this context) to create some wriggle room.
    Obviously if the valid relief point on the other side of the track is nearer to the original position of the ball things are better!

    Situations like this are classic examples of why you shouldn't pick up your ball from the track until you are sure you have a better option!
    I understand that stance and NPR are integral.

    My point about the position of the stance I can take, clear of the track, and at the closest point to my ball - is that in itself it does matter - because if I cannot drop the ball in bounds taking a normal address for the shot I would have played had the track not been there - then that stance position is redundant as it does not help me identify me NPR. It is NOT the de facto 'stance point' for defining the NPR.

    And I proceed as you indicate.

    But what if I cannot have 1 club length beyond the NPR as that takes my OoB. Clearly in my scenario I could have 1 club length in a direction back towards the tee and I might still be able to take a normal stance taking full relief from the track. Is the 1 club length beyond the NPR something the rules give us - and so something that we can use to define our NPR - I go back down the track until I have a NPR one club length from the boudary fence?

    Sorry again - still not quite got it nailed it in my head...
    Last edited by SwingsitlikeHogan; 12-Jul-2018 at 17:18.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

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