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  1. #1
    Major Champion SwingsitlikeHogan's Avatar
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    Out of Bounds very close to track

    My ball lands on a track from which I can take relief. My ball is close to the side of the track close to which the course boundary runs alongside, and parallel to, the track. I can take a stance immediately off the track but I cannot make a normal address - the course boundary being less than 2ft from the edge of the track. What is the ruling?

    Where the course boundary is a little further from the edge of the track and I can take a stance and take a normal address - then that would be my NPR - but there is not one club length to the course boundary - in line with my original ball position and the NPR. What is the ruling?
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  2. #2
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    This (I think is the appropriate ruling)

    24-2b/3

    Player Determines Nearest Point of Relief But Physically Unable to Play Intended Stroke

    Q.In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i), the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used to make his next stroke had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if, having determined the stroke he would have used, he is unable physically to make such a stroke from, what would appear to be, the nearest point of relief because either (a) the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or (b) he is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush?

    A.The point identified is the nearest point of relief. The fact that at this point the player cannot make the intended stroke due to something other than the obstruction or condition from which relief is being taken does not alter this result. The player must drop the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole. Once the ball is in play, the player must then decide what type of stroke he will make. This stroke may be different from the one he would have made from the ball's original position had the obstruction or condition not been there.
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  3. #3
    Major Champion SwingsitlikeHogan's Avatar
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by jim8flog View Post
    This (I think is the appropriate ruling)

    24-2b/3

    Player Determines Nearest Point of Relief But Physically Unable to Play Intended Stroke

    Q.In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i), the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used to make his next stroke had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if, having determined the stroke he would have used, he is unable physically to make such a stroke from, what would appear to be, the nearest point of relief because either (a) the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or (b) he is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush?

    A.The point identified is the nearest point of relief. The fact that at this point the player cannot make the intended stroke due to something other than the obstruction or condition from which relief is being taken does not alter this result. The player must drop the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole. Once the ball is in play, the player must then decide what type of stroke he will make. This stroke may be different from the one he would have made from the ball's original position had the obstruction or condition not been there.
    Not sure it does - the former scenario prevents me taking an address position as I am too close to the course boundary fence - I can take a stance but not emulate my address position because the position of the ball were I to stand at the NPR, would be out of bounds. In this scenario I think I can take relief the other side of the track.

    The latter is clearer to me. I can take a stance and an address position standing at the NPR - I just cannot drop within one club length of where the ball would sit given my addressing it at the NPR. The fact that one club length could take me out of bounds is irrelevant as I could still drop within one club length backwards. In this scenario I think I cannot take relief the other side of the track. But just checking.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And last medal of the year (Oct) saw me play to handicap but CSS was +1 so that was me down 0.2 from 8.3 to 8.1

    Job done

  4. #4
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    Not sure it does - the former scenario prevents me taking an address position as I am too close to the course boundary fence - I can take a stance but not emulate my address position because the position of the ball were I to stand at the NPR, would be out of bounds. In this scenario I think I can take relief the other side of the track.

    The latter is clearer to me. I can take a stance and an address position standing at the NPR - I just cannot drop within one club length of where the ball would sit given my addressing it at the NPR. The fact that one club length could take me out of bounds is irrelevant as I could still drop within one club length backwards. In this scenario I think I cannot take relief the other side of the track. But just checking.
    Need some clarification of what you mean as the first paragraph sounds a little confused to me. I think though you are saying that is no where on the boundary side of the track where you could drop the ball in bounds that would enable you to take your normal stance. If that is the case, and I may have got it wring, by definition your NPR must be on the other side of the track.

  5. #5
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    There is nothing in the definition of an NPR that says you are entitled to your normal stance. "Relief" refers exclusively to relief from the obstruction or condition that is causing the interference.

    Decision 24-2b.3.5 might be more helpful :
    http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-...-24,d24-2b-3.5

    If the boundary fence or anything else prevents you from taking up a normal stance you must estimate where the NPR is, imagining that the fence, or tree or whatever does not exist. You can, of course, play your ball with one or both feet out of bounds and may have to imagine that as well. The NPR must be on the course.

    These are general points which may help you in the situation you describe but I can't be more precise, not having seen the area.

  6. #6
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Firstly, remember that NPOR comes into play when you are taking relief because something (ie a "condition") interferes with the ball, your stance or the area of your intended swing. Having said that, I think in both cases one needs to look more closely at the definition of NPOR - which is, in part,

    It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

    (i)
    that is not nearer the hole, and

    (ii)
    where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.


    It only makes reference to the condition from which relief is being sought - ie in this case, the path. The NPOR is the point at which there would be no longer any interference (to ball/stance/swing) caused by the condition. There is no mention of there being no interference (to ball/stance/swing) by anything else.

    The decisions referred to above, indicate that the NPOR should be estimated if it cannot be physically determined. NPOR is where it is. It is irrelevant whether or not something else now causes interference. That there is now no space to take a stance, or make a swing, or there is not 1 club length in which to drop, does not alter that fact of the NPOR being where it is.

    From the description given, it sounds very much like in both cases that NPOR is on the boundary side of the path. In both cases you accept the fact that the NPOR is somewhat unsatisfactory - and use it taking the consequences - or you lump it and play the ball as it lies (or use the unplayable rule). You dont get to choose a different NPOR.

    Of course, in some cases, if you did take "unsatisfactory relief", some things which cause the new interference, may entitle you to further free relief. But a boundary fence is not one of them.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Ps. I note that in SiLH's second post he refers to a situation of the ball being out of bounds were he to stand at the nearest point of relief.

    Remember that NPOR refers to the position at which the ball would lie - not the position where where you place your feet.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    My ball lands on a track from which I can take relief. My ball is close to the side of the track close to which the course boundary runs alongside, and parallel to, the track. I can take a stance immediately off the track but I cannot make a normal address - the course boundary being less than 2ft from the edge of the track. What is the ruling?

    Where the course boundary is a little further from the edge of the track and I can take a stance and take a normal address - then that would be my NPR - but there is not one club length to the course boundary - in line with my original ball position and the NPR. What is the ruling?
    I've gone back to the original question because it's easier that way!

    The missing bit seems to be the consideration of your normal stance address etc if you read the decision Jim posted more carefully you will see that it starts with the definition of NOR and that the consideration of the appropriate club, direction etc relate to what you would do if the track your ball is on wasn t there - not what you would do if the boundary wasn t there!

    Because of this you may have a valid NPR that, when used, subsequently becomes a relief situation for a revised (reasonable) stroke. Ie even though you will (obviously) end up taking relief from the same obstruction because you will change you direction of play, or swing, or club etc, you still drop in relation to thst NPR and then subsequently proceed from there. Which is what the decision is about.

    In practice, and from your description, this will mean that you switch to left handed to establish your second NPR and, at that point, you would be back on the other side of the track in you first example and, as the space available increases, you will increasingly have the opportunity to end up in a right mess when you get a valid drop that ends up against the boundary for you to play left handed.....at which point you wished you were playing from the track in the first place!

    Hope this makes sense
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  9. #9
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by backwoodsman View Post
    Of course, in some cases, if you did take "unsatisfactory relief", some things which cause the new interference, may entitle you to further free relief. But a boundary fence is not one of them.
    Yes to everything in your post but this last bit doesn't go far enough IMO.

    The key here is that the same obstruction can provide interference after the valid initial drop because of the revised stroke that, taking into account the boundary, could be considered reasonable.

    The confusion tends to be a result of appreciating the general principle that an NPR has to be clear of the original obstruction to be valid - which is only true for the stroke established to meet condition (ii) in the definition.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Out of Bounds very close to track

    Quote Originally Posted by duncan mackie View Post
    I've gone back to the original question because it's easier that way!

    The missing bit seems to be the consideration of your normal stance address etc if you read the decision Jim posted more carefully you will see that it starts with the definition of NOR and that the consideration of the appropriate club, direction etc relate to what you would do if the track your ball is on wasn t there - not what you would do if the boundary wasn t there!

    Because of this you may have a valid NPR that, when used, subsequently becomes a relief situation for a revised (reasonable) stroke. Ie even though you will (obviously) end up taking relief from the same obstruction because you will change you direction of play, or swing, or club etc, you still drop in relation to thst NPR and then subsequently proceed from there. Which is what the decision is about.

    In practice, and from your description, this will mean that you switch to left handed to establish your second NPR and, at that point, you would be back on the other side of the track in you first example and, as the space available increases, you will increasingly have the opportunity to end up in a right mess when you get a valid drop that ends up against the boundary for you to play left handed.....at which point you wished you were playing from the track in the first place!

    Hope this makes sense
    If you switched to play left handed after the first drop on the boundary side, and then got relief for the track interfering with your stance and therefore dropped again on the "inside" of the track, are you then bound to play left handed since playing right handed at the point would mean you hadn't taken full relief from the track as you'd be standing on it to play right handed? Or could you switch back to right handed and seek further relief?

    I think I'd be playing from the track first time round
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