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  1. #21
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    Re: Bridge over ditch

    Well spotted. The curious thing is that up till this year, having done this tournament for 5 years, there were indeed stakes helpfully positioned on either side and I remember the first time I was there thinking it was good to see it marked properly.

    I don't know why it has changed but your reference to greenstaff may well be the clue. I'll be mentioning it to the club manager the next time I see him.

  2. #22
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    Re: Bridge over ditch

    There seems to be a distinct shortage of anything red in the area.

  3. #23
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    Re: Bridge over ditch

    Quote Originally Posted by rulefan View Post
    There seems to be a distinct shortage of anything red in the area.
    It's generally ok apart from the disappearance of the stakes marking the grass bit over the drainpipe. There are stakes just behind where I was standing and the photo seems to exaggerate the length of the ditch. If I were very critical, the stakes don't quite take in the curvature of the ditch but the margin is very clear.

  4. #24

    Re: Bridge over ditch

    If the local rules on a scorecard state "water hazards, identified by yellow stakes or unmarked are ordinary water hazards. Water hazards identified by red stakes are lateral water hazards"...

    ...what should be used to define the margins of the hazard? The natural break of the hazard?

    Where would you then consider the natural break to be in the following picture....the beginning of the subtle slope (a drop of 1ft over a lateral distance of 5-6ft) leading down to the cut channel....or the drop from the grass into the cut channel itself (the channel for the most part is no more than 8 inches wide and 3 or 4 inches deep).
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  5. #25
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    Re: Bridge over ditch

    Quote Originally Posted by nickjdavis View Post
    Where would you then consider the natural break to be in the following picture....the beginning of the subtle slope (a drop of 1ft over a lateral distance of 5-6ft) leading down to the cut channel....or the drop from the grass into the cut channel itself (the channel for the most part is no more than 8 inches wide and 3 or 4 inches deep).
    Those yellow stakes seem a long way from the channel - does the general area tend to get flooded in winter?

    If I came across something like this while playing, I'd use straight lines between stakes to define the margin of the hazard.

  6. #26
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    Re: Bridge over ditch

    The yellow stakes as stated in the Local Rules only identify the water hazard; they do not define it. The natural margin is the drop from the cut edge into the channel and that is what defines the water hazard. In effect, it looks as if your ball would be usually be in the water hazard only if it fell into the ditch, but it might be possible for a ball to be overhanging the edge in which case it would be in the hazard.
    Last edited by Colin L; 08-Jun-2018 at 20:27.

  7. #27

    Re: Bridge over ditch

    Quote Originally Posted by cliveb View Post
    Those yellow stakes seem a long way from the channel - does the general area tend to get flooded in winter?
    No.... we had a natural spring suddenly appear in the trees behind the buggy.... this caused a bunker (that is no longer there!) to fill with water along with the general area in the trees. The channel was cut to allow the water to flow away from the area to a pond on the other side of the fairway (behind where the picture was taken from)... in winter the water flows quite nicely down the channel but the general area doesn't flood.
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  8. #28

    Re: Bridge over ditch

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin L View Post
    The yellow stakes as stated in the Local Rules only identify the water hazard; they do not define it. The natural margin is the drop from the cut edge into the channel and that is what defines the water hazard. In effect, it looks as if your ball would be usually be in the water hazard only if it fell into the ditch, but it might be possible for a ball to be overhanging the edge in which case it would be in the hazard.
    I've never seen a ball finish overhanging the edge of the cut channel... in winter when the grass grows a bit longer I guess it is more likely but like I say... I've never seen it. However there are numerous occasions where a ball comes to rest on either bank and the general discussion is whether the ball is within the hazard and whether a player may ground his club or not.

    I'm wondering if we should be specifically rewording the local rule on the card to clarify that the hazard is defined by where it naturally breaks.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Bridge over ditch

    Quote Originally Posted by nickjdavis View Post
    I've never seen a ball finish overhanging the edge of the cut channel... in winter when the grass grows a bit longer I guess it is more likely but like I say... I've never seen it. However there are numerous occasions where a ball comes to rest on either bank and the general discussion is whether the ball is within the hazard and whether a player may ground his club or not.

    l'm wondering if we should be specifically rewording the local rule on the card to clarify that the hazard is defined by where it naturally breaks.
    The local rule only indicates which colour stake is used for what kind of water hazard. The definition of a water hazard in the Rules of Golf states that if only stakes are used to mark it, then the stakes actually define the margin of the hazard. So in your picture, I'd say the hazard is about 5 yards wide - ie stake to stake either side of it.

    So, if it is intended that only the cut channel is the hazard, then the stakes should be moved up to its natural edge (as given in decision 33-2a/4). If that gives difficulty in them being seen from further back (ie from where shots are likely being played), then the stakes could stay where they are, but the actual edge of the hazard needs to be marked by a line. (I don't think you can get round it by just re-wording the local rule).
    Last edited by backwoodsman; 09-Jun-2018 at 05:40.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Bridge over ditch

    Quote Originally Posted by backwoodsman View Post
    The local rule only indicates which colour stake is used for what kind of water hazard. The definition of a water hazard in the Rules of Golf states that if only stakes are used to mark it, then the stakes actually define the margin of the hazard. So in your picture, I'd say the hazard is about 5 yards wide - ie stake to stake either side of it.
    The local rule states that the stakes identify the water hazard. That is, they tell players that there is a water hazard there: they do not define it. The stakes in this instance are black with a yellow top whereas stakes defining a water hazard must be yellow - perhaps a deliberate indication that they are identifying not defining (perhaps accidental!).

    It would indeed be better if either the margins of the WH ie the edge of the ditch were yellow lined or the margins were clarified in the local rule, but I would venture that the situation as illustrated and as stated in the LR is understandable. A ball lying between the indicative stakes and the ditch is not in the water hazard unless it is overhanging the edge of the ditch.
    Last edited by Colin L; 09-Jun-2018 at 06:33.

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