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  1. #11
    Ryder Cup Winner garyinderry's Avatar
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by bobmac View Post
    Why are you trying to get a more shallow angle of attack?
    Because in the past I've just come down steeply on them and I was thinking I was maybe too steep.

    Tired a few shallow approaches when playing the day before and slipped in under them nicely and popped out. didn't work so well in practice. Was just a notion to try as I had always picked the club up rather quickly.
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  2. #12
    Ryder Cup Winner garyinderry's Avatar
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by Curls View Post
    *insert no expert disclaimer here*

    I'm guessing from your intro you're not overly confident in the technique and aren't getting the results you want, so if you'll allow me to be constructively critical...

    It was pretty breezy eh?!

    I'd say your left hand grip looks strong, which might be you opening the clubface by turning your hands over rather than turning the club in your grip? I thought you were squaring the face in the description but it looks pretty open to me?

    There is two different techniques being attempted if you can call it that. 16th bunker I was trying what you see many do. Face way open, opening up adding more loft on back swing although I trying to raise the toe a bit too at address.

    The second technique was what I called the birchy method which was square and digging
    .

    A lot of your shots bounce right, not just cos of wind at a guess, you're cutting across it which is fine if you allow for and can control the bounce/spin right on landing. In left to right winds like the first video it's a killer so maybe work on a bunker shot that doesn't chop across as much.

    Was just trying what you see on TV and have done a lot in the past. The old chop across.

    Your follow through looks full and relaxed. Not a bad thing at all. I wonder if it's a bit too relaxed though! Are you getting the acceleration through impact you need particularly to get the ball up very quickly if faced with a steep face?

    It also almost looks like your body falls back after impact. If you want your weight to be behind the ball I guess this is what you'd do but I always though your sternum should be over the impact point in the sand.

    Noticed this too. Kills me in my golf swing too. glad I took a side on to see this)


    I'd be worried about brushing the sand on the way back with that shallow a take away. The way I was taught was a steep take away and impact, transferring all the weight to the lead foot. Distance is controlled by

    1. How open you set up - both in terms of body and clubface
    2. how far forward the ball is (also controls height/trajectory)
    3. How much sand you take.

    Generally I'm looking to take a decent amount of sand on all but very long shots because at ours the sand depth is very variable (as is the condition after rain etc). I reckon if you play a lovely american fluffy sand course then the shallow technique is grand, but in the variability I face at least I prefer to have one shot type that I can vary with set up, rather than a bunch of shot types. I know its not whats taught in a lot of places but it works for me!

    More than one way to skin this cat!

    Good man for putting videos up, I haven't done this and might do over the winter - you'll have a good chance to get me back then

    Appreciate it. I will work more on this and post more to see if there is much improvement. I was just in there trying things it. Havant had much time to do this kind of messing about practice this summer.


    I was also trying what felt like a forward ball position on the bunker shots on 16. In hindsight this may not suit a shallow approach and someone falling back. #airmail
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  3. #13
    Journeyman Pro Curls's Avatar
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    As it happens the coincidence that you were hit twice with the same question wasn't a coincidence - Bob taught me that technique!

    It's really versatile, whether the bunker is wet/soft deep/shallow fluffy/gritty it's the same basic shot with set up adjustments. Given what I play in its perfect. A good tip I saw by Andy Sullivan was just to draw a line in the sand with you club and practice hitting that with the bounce of the wedge. When there's no ball there you focus much more on how/where the club enters the sand. Then at the end of the line you have a ball and you just pop that sucker out without thinking. Try it!
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  4. #14
    Ryder Cup Winner garyinderry's Avatar
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by Curls View Post
    As it happens the coincidence that you were hit twice with the same question wasn't a coincidence - Bob taught me that technique!

    It's really versatile, whether the bunker is wet/soft deep/shallow fluffy/gritty it's the same basic shot with set up adjustments. Given what I play in its perfect. A good tip I saw by Andy Sullivan was just to draw a line in the sand with you club and practice hitting that with the bounce of the wedge. When there's no ball there you focus much more on how/where the club enters the sand. Then at the end of the line you have a ball and you just pop that sucker out without thinking. Try it!

    I will do. I probably shouldn't be opening up these wedges so much on this heavy wet sand saying they already have so much bounce on them.
    Titleist 910 9.5* (old trusty)
    Titleist 913 F 16* 4 wood
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    Vokey SM 6 56* 14*bounce
    Titleist sm5 k grind 60* 11*bounce
    Lee Trevino Napa style putter
    handicap updated to --(2017)8.2---8.4---8.2---8.0---7.8--

  5. #15
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    bunch of stuff to maybes to consider G
    realize the grip situation is & has been a kinda work in progress

    but both hands are pretty strong so they are naturally goin to take loft of the club face - brain senses this & instinctively compensates without any real conscious thought so you get the upper body leaning back aways as the brain looks to help the ball up & out

    ball position - my take - looked to be more middle of the stance didn't looking forwards at all so again that means brain sensing a de-lofted face arriving too soon at the place back of the ball
    looked to me swing direction was a tad out to rightfield - a bunch of shots starting direction out to right of pin (shoulder line at set-up looked angled out to right (tad closed) also) so coming from the inside - maybes a couple of kinda heel leading edge strikes in there too ....

    so in an ideal world both hands would need to be a bunch weaker - if not that's goin to make it a whole bunch more difficult as then that would mean more hip/body rotation needed into strike into sand to stop the face de-loft too much

    so ball position - a ball at least forwards of where it was maybes even a tad more than one ball
    but what is real important is that the upper body does not lean back - so imagine from face on view point that at set-up
    (which could probably need a tad wider stance tad lower hands/handle so you a tad further aways from the ball)
    from face-on that a 'line' from your belt buckle to sternum is virtually at 90º make the takeback/backswing with a tad more wrist-set (tad more forwards ball position will give you shallow attack don't need the kinda no wrists shallow takeback - it's the forwards swing that to a certain extent shallows out 'some' so it's not 'mega steep' to just dig in & not get out but still need to be -4º -5º to take the sand out)

    but then imagine too as you come back in the downswing to sand impact that the line between belt buckle & sternum is still almost vertical at 90º so the spine angle wouldn't be leaning back off the ball any you're just rotating/turning thru with upper body more 'centered'
    & the tad more wrist-set will give you some more clubhead speed to zip the bounce thru the sand & get distance - the less wrist goin back means it's hard to get the speed thru the sand to reach those pin positions

    speed of clubhead is being produced by wrists/arms & rotation for the distances from a green side bunker so don't need to think transfer weight into the rightside so much goin back at all

    - at set-up feel that the weight is more lead 55/45 trail & it stays that ways on the backswing and just 'feel' it stays like that on the downswing to impact - it won't actual stay like that into impact it will naturally get a tad more on the lead side as you swing down & rotate thru - but you don't need a big transfer or shift left with these small distances as a weight shift at transition would tend to either get you too steep so too much sand or make you more back off the ball lean back & 'sh**k' or blade it

    ideal would be a change in grip hold of the handle by rotating both hands counterclockwise some so both thumbs are more to the topside of the handle 'v's pointing to just rightside of chin - but that done with that grip hold taken first when the leading edge is just 'open' a tad of square so face maybes 10º open-ish - not grip taken with leading edge square to target then just turning the hands/handle to provide a false 'open' face as it would just return square with less loft presented less bounce presented & make life more difficult again

    have a go at grip change & then just practice thumping the bounce into the sand (no ball) onto a line forwards of center of stance to throw a 'money-note' size bunch of sand out each time

    & make sure at set-up that the shoulder line isn't pointing right of target any
    Last edited by the_coach; 13-Oct-2017 at 00:24.
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  6. #16
    Major Champion bobmac's Avatar
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    Don't know why you want a shallow angle of attack at this time of the year
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  7. #17
    Ryder Cup Winner garyinderry's Avatar
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by bobmac View Post
    Don't know why you want a shallow angle of attack at this time of the year
    Just thought it would be something I would try. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Probably not the idea time of the year to try it right enough with heavy wet sand.
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    Lee Trevino Napa style putter
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  8. #18
    Ryder Cup Winner garyinderry's Avatar
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by the_coach View Post
    bunch of stuff to maybes to consider G
    realize the grip situation is & has been a kinda work in progress

    but both hands are pretty strong so they are naturally goin to take loft of the club face - brain senses this & instinctively compensates without any real conscious thought so you get the upper body leaning back aways as the brain looks to help the ball up & out

    ball position - my take - looked to be more middle of the stance didn't looking forwards at all so again that means brain sensing a de-lofted face arriving too soon at the place back of the ball
    looked to me swing direction was a tad out to rightfield - a bunch of shots starting direction out to right of pin (shoulder line at set-up looked angled out to right (tad closed) also) so coming from the inside - maybes a couple of kinda heel leading edge strikes in there too ....

    so in an ideal world both hands would need to be a bunch weaker - if not that's goin to make it a whole bunch more difficult as then that would mean more hip/body rotation needed into strike into sand to stop the face de-loft too much

    so ball position - a ball at least forwards of where it was maybes even a tad more than one ball
    but what is real important is that the upper body does not lean back - so imagine from face on view point that at set-up
    (which could probably need a tad wider stance tad lower hands/handle so you a tad further aways from the ball)
    from face-on that a 'line' from your belt buckle to sternum is virtually at 90º make the takeback/backswing with a tad more wrist-set (tad more forwards ball position will give you shallow attack don't need the kinda no wrists shallow takeback - it's the forwards swing that to a certain extent shallows out 'some' so it's not 'mega steep' to just dig in & not get out but still need to be -4º -5º to take the sand out)

    but then imagine too as you come back in the downswing to sand impact that the line between belt buckle & sternum is still almost vertical at 90º so the spine angle wouldn't be leaning back off the ball any you're just rotating/turning thru with upper body more 'centered'
    & the tad more wrist-set will give you some more clubhead speed to zip the bounce thru the sand & get distance - the less wrist goin back means it's hard to get the speed thru the sand to reach those pin positions

    speed of clubhead is being produced by wrists/arms & rotation for the distances from a green side bunker so don't need to think transfer weight into the rightside so much goin back at all

    - at set-up feel that the weight is more lead 55/45 trail & it stays that ways on the backswing and just 'feel' it stays like that on the downswing to impact - it won't actual stay like that into impact it will naturally get a tad more on the lead side as you swing down & rotate thru - but you don't need a big transfer or shift left with these small distances as a weight shift at transition would tend to either get you too steep so too much sand or make you more back off the ball lean back & 'sh**k' or blade it

    ideal would be a change in grip hold of the handle by rotating both hands counterclockwise some so both thumbs are more to the topside of the handle 'v's pointing to just rightside of chin - but that done with that grip hold taken first when the leading edge is just 'open' a tad of square so face maybes 10º open-ish - not grip taken with leading edge square to target then just turning the hands/handle to provide a false 'open' face as it would just return square with less loft presented less bounce presented & make life more difficult again

    have a go at grip change & then just practice thumping the bounce into the sand (no ball) onto a line forwards of center of stance to throw a 'money-note' size bunch of sand out each time

    & make sure at set-up that the shoulder line isn't pointing right of target any

    Plenty to chew on there. I always seem to grip my wedges super strong. Much stronger than other clubs.

    Did you notice there was too different attempted styles.

    Bunker labelled 16th was open stance and bunker labelled 2nd was aiming right of the target but I was thinking the wind was going to blow the ball right to left in the air. It didn't really touch it too much.


    Think I will try to hit a little closer to the ball next time. Ended up watching seve last night. He was saying an inch and a half is where he likes to enter the sand.
    Titleist 910 9.5* (old trusty)
    Titleist 913 F 16* 4 wood
    Titleist 913 19* 5 wood
    Titleist 915 24* hybrid
    Titleist 915 27* hybrid
    Mizuno Fli Hi JPX (2012) 6 & 7
    Titleist 714ap2 8-gap
    Vokey SM 6 56* 14*bounce
    Titleist sm5 k grind 60* 11*bounce
    Lee Trevino Napa style putter
    handicap updated to --(2017)8.2---8.4---8.2---8.0---7.8--

  9. #19
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by garyinderry View Post
    Plenty to chew on there. I always seem to grip my wedges super strong. Much stronger than other clubs.

    Did you notice there was too different attempted styles.

    Bunker labelled 16th was open stance and bunker labelled 2nd was aiming right of the target but I was thinking the wind was going to blow the ball right to left in the air. It didn't really touch it too much.


    Think I will try to hit a little closer to the ball next time. Ended up watching seve last night. He was saying an inch and a half is where he likes to enter the sand.
    yep understood the difference

    it's possible to play bunker shots with a real strong grip both hands - but that does mean that has to be taken into account with the particular swing motion & set-up that would need to be associated with that strong grip as the brain will tend to look to make compensations - like the lean back spine - because square face or open face along with the grip position will naturally de-loft the face - open face start would be better but strong grip has to be taken to the open face at address not just turn the face open with hands to 'open' the face as that's a false open

    big key is the angle of the spine as said - leaning back off the ball to trail side makes it very difficult

    have a look at zack j, here he of the real strong grip - note the forwards ball position - & the spine angle & how open the face is to start look how the weight doesn't move into the trail leg (as per norm irons) weight kept more as it started off a tad more on the lead leg not real transfer - notice how his upper body through the shot is stacked on top of the lower body so more vertical belt buckle to sternum - no backwards tilt

    in set-up too from dtl note the tad lower hands so standing a tad further away from the ball

    Last edited by the_coach; 13-Oct-2017 at 15:25.
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  10. #20
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    Re: spent some time in the sand yesterday

    the_coach Handicap Index +4.2
    Driver: TM M2 9.5º M 7M3 X-S w73g
    3metal:TM M2 3m M 80M4 X-S w86g
    Hybrid: Callaway Apex 3h 20º Altus HY T X-S w91g
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    Wedges: Cleveland 588 rtg's 46º bounce 8º KBS 610 S+ w125g. 52º bounce 8º KBS 610 S+ w125g. Fourteen RM 12 (forged) 58º bounce 8º KBS Hi-Rev X-S w135g.
    Putter: Scotty Cameron 2004 Newport Beach 1.5 Milled Titleist Pro V1x -

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