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  1. #1
    Money List Winner sawtooth's Avatar
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    Can you mess with standard scratch?

    We had our open yesterday where we played off the stones on white tees SSS 71.

    Men comps are usually white tees and of late the SSS has been always been 71 and matches what is printed on the card so no issues there.

    However in the bar afterwards someone mentioned that regular club comps off whites always used to be played using SSS of 70. Card stayed as 71 but override on the system to 70.

    We assume the reason was that the course normally is not set up to make use of 2 back tee boxes on a couple of holes. These tees are in a totally different position and set back quite a bit compared to the other tees unlike other holes. Therefore shortening the course a fair bit.

    Some argued that this seemed logical and others said no it shouldn't be done you can't mess with the SSS.

    To complicate things a bit a "visitor" from the other club that plays on the same course ( 2 golf clubs operating from one golf complex) said that we've always left our SSS 71 and if yours was adjusted to 70 then your handicaps would be wrong and could be unfair when playing matches against them.

    My head was hurting by the end of all the discussion about cuts, buffer, etc.
    H'cap 8.9

  2. #2
    Hall of Famer Liverpoolphil's Avatar
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    You cannot change SSS - the course is rated and it is given a SSS and it must stay that unless any changes are made and the course is re rated

    Maybe they are getting confused with CSS which can change dependant on the scores etc

    Now you could have two course ratings depending if you have two totally different tees etc

    You should have a certificate somewhere from when the course was last rated and that SSS must be put onto the system.

  3. #3
    Money List Winner sawtooth's Avatar
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Definitely SSS not CSS.

    The course was measured some time ago and whites are SSS 71 and yellows 69.

    As mentioned the course is not normally set up for white tee distance and the past secretary used artistic license to adjust SSS to 70 presumably to redress the balance.

    Within scope of clubs to do that or not? It's 71 now and that's how it will stay so now just a hypothetical question.

  4. #4
    Hall of Famer Liverpoolphil's Avatar
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawtooth View Post
    Definitely SSS not CSS.

    The course was measured some time ago and whites are SSS 71 and yellows 69.

    As mentioned the course is not normally set up for white tee distance and the past secretary used artistic license to adjust SSS to 70 presumably to redress the balance.

    Within scope of clubs to do that or not? It's 71 now and that's how it will stay so now just a hypothetical question.
    Nope you can't do that

    For HC Q purposes the course must within 100 yards total of the measured SSS course - the rules are quite clear on that

    Moving the tees around and adjusting SSS is wrong and that guy shouldn't be near a golf role

  5. #5
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawtooth View Post
    Definitely SSS not CSS.

    The course was measured some time ago and whites are SSS 71 and yellows 69.

    As mentioned the course is not normally set up for white tee distance and the past secretary used artistic license to adjust SSS to 70 presumably to redress the balance.

    Within scope of clubs to do that or not? It's 71 now and that's how it will stay so now just a hypothetical question.
    Does the change in length of these two holes reduce the course length by more than 100 yards?

    If so, the SSS should be reduced by 1 stroke. But this CONGU facility is really intended for temporary course changes.
    If the alternate set up is to be used regularly it should be rated formally.

    However, it would seem your course has not yet been assessed under the new USGA system. When this is done (in the next year or so) your club should ask for the alternate tees to be rated also. This will legitimise the situation.

    Edit:

    When the course was last rated, was it with these tees in the far back position or in a forward position?
    Can you tell me the length of both versions?
    Last edited by rulefan; 16-Jul-2017 at 08:08.

  6. #6
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawtooth View Post
    We had our open yesterday where we played off the stones on white tees SSS 71.

    Men comps are usually white tees and of late the SSS has been always been 71 and matches what is printed on the card so no issues there.

    However in the bar afterwards someone mentioned that regular club comps off whites always used to be played using SSS of 70. Card stayed as 71 but override on the system to 70.

    We assume the reason was that the course normally is not set up to make use of 2 back tee boxes on a couple of holes. These tees are in a totally different position and set back quite a bit compared to the other tees unlike other holes. Therefore shortening the course a fair bit.

    Some argued that this seemed logical and others said no it shouldn't be done you can't mess with the SSS.

    To complicate things a bit a "visitor" from the other club that plays on the same course ( 2 golf clubs operating from one golf complex) said that we've always left our SSS 71 and if yours was adjusted to 70 then your handicaps would be wrong and could be unfair when playing matches against them.

    My head was hurting by the end of all the discussion about cuts, buffer, etc.
    I can't help with your question, but are you talking about Downshire? If so I played yesterday, those two holes with the tees pushed back, really change those holes.

  7. #7
    Money List Winner sawtooth's Avatar
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by rulefan View Post
    Does the change in length of these two holes reduce the course length by more than 100 yards?

    If so, the SSS should be reduced by 1 stroke. But this CONGU facility is really intended for temporary course changes.
    If the alternate set up is to be used regularly it should be rated formally.

    However, it would seem your course has not yet been assessed under the new USGA system. When this is done (in the next year or so) your club should ask for the alternate tees to be rated also. This will legitimise the situation.

    Edit:

    When the course was last rated, was it with these tees in the far back position or in a forward position?
    Can you tell me the length of both versions?
    Yes probably distance is 100yds plus shorter.

    Course was measure in the past of those back tee positions which are rarely in use. It does appear that we've used that ruling to reduce the SSS albeit on a semi permanent basis. My guess is that it began as a temporary arrangement with best intentions but stayed that way because works to those tee boxes was never carried out.

    No we have not been remeasured yet, will all course get remeasured? EGU said they were doing around 2000 over the next couple of years (back in February).

    If we play it as SSS 71 on a shorter course than it was measured I assume our handicaps could be skewed a little bit? Perhaps making it easier to get cut and making our handicaps less competitive away from home? Is that right?

  8. #8
    Money List Winner sawtooth's Avatar
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
    I can't help with your question, but are you talking about Downshire? If so I played yesterday, those two holes with the tees pushed back, really change those holes.
    Yes indeed although the back tee on the 8th wasn't as far back as it can go.

    The 4th hole imakes a big difference to difficulty and many tees were as far back as they could go hence playing to the correct SSS.

  9. #9
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawtooth View Post
    Yes probably distance is 100yds plus shorter.

    Course was measure in the past of those back tee positions which are rarely in use. It does appear that we've used that ruling to reduce the SSS albeit on a semi permanent basis. My guess is that it began as a temporary arrangement with best intentions but stayed that way because works to those tee boxes was never carried out.

    No we have not been remeasured yet, will all course get remeasured? EGU said they were doing around 2000 over the next couple of years (back in February).

    If we play it as SSS 71 on a shorter course than it was measured I assume our handicaps could be skewed a little bit? Perhaps making it easier to get cut and making our handicaps less competitive away from home? Is that right?
    I suggest you stick with 70/71 when playing from the shorter/longer tees. That will prevent the skewing effect.

    England Golf (ie EG not EGU) have a target of 2020 - unlikely though.

    If your club has not already got one, you can get a 'temporary' rating for the longer course from EG. Or they may simply confirm what you are doing now (more likely).

  10. #10
    Hall of Famer Liverpoolphil's Avatar
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    Re: Can you mess with standard scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by rulefan View Post
    I suggest you stick with 70/71 when playing from the shorter/longer tees. That will prevent the skewing effect.

    England Golf (ie EG not EGU) have a target of 2020 - unlikely though.

    If your club has not already got one, you can get a 'temporary' rating for the longer course from EG. Or they may simply confirm what you are doing now (more likely).
    We spoke to a course assessor and the moving of SSS is only for temporary course changes and for clubs to still play HC Q on that course. Moving it around based on tees without proper assessment surely is not the correct way of doing it - the club have clearly not be doing things correctly for a while and you surely can't compound that by continuing to carry on the same way. That gives clubs license to just move around tees and SSS as they wish

    I would suggest the club start to use the course of the whites that has been measured an assessed and use the SSS assigned to that and then look to have the other tees assessed separately asap

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