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  1. #141
    Tour Rookie Bunkermagnet's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by butty57 View Post
    Very much so!! Our main club knockout open to all handicaps is hardly ever won by anyone under 10 handicap - never by a scratch player - that has to say that something is not right, surely?
    I don't have a problem with handicaps at match-play but we lower handicaps players are not starting from a level playing field.
    The reason being is that the higher handicap player is given the difference in 'shots' starting at stroke index 1 - the toughest hole for both handicaps.
    Example.
    I'm off 8, and say I play someone off 12, we are both expected to make bogey at stroke index 1, so if he is given a shot over me at this hole then it goes without saying that he is more likely to win that hole more times than not, statistically speaking.
    So what makes this worse is that I have to give him 4 shots which he takes then at the 4 hardest holes for me - almost giving him a 4 hole start!

    In my opinion the fairer way to play match-play is to let each play have their full handicap allowance (if it has to be full), and not the difference.
    So in the same case above, we both get shots on stroke indexes 1-8, then he gets his extra 4 shots on holes 9-12, where I am expected to make pars to his bogeys, and then the other 6 holes are then played with no shot differences.
    To me this then allows the scoring on the day to make a difference but from a much fairer starting point.
    Isn't that simpler and fairer?

    Does anyone else have an opinion on my suggestions?
    How do we start a campaign to put this to the R&A?
    IN your example the difference in number of shots is 4, so he just has 4 shots over you. You are playing an opponent, not the course. Matchplay is just about playing a certain hole in less than your opponent.
    Forever trying.

  2. #142
    Q-School Graduate HughJars's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY HANDICAP?

  3. #143
    Tour Rookie Bunkermagnet's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by HughJars View Post
    WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY HANDICAP?
    If it's accurate and correct.....nothing
    Forever trying.

  4. #144
    Global Moderator DCB's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    How do we start a campaign to put this to the R&A?
    What's it got to do with the R&A ?

  5. #145
    Q-School Graduate HughJars's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by scubascuba3 View Post
    I understand it's meant to be statistically fairer to have full handicaps for single matchplay events but i just don't believe it.

    For example I'm 5 hc, i play someone 25 he gets 20 shots. Say i play 20% better than average on the day so shoot 4 over, 1 shot lower. He also plays 20% better, so shoots 20 over, 5 shots lower. Doesn't sound fair to me.

    Also many clubs have different categories for medal comps, mine has 5, also bigger buffer sizes so its pretty obvious all categories are not equal otherwise everyone would be happy playing in one category only. So this matchplay full difference is just nonsense.

    It's a shame, I'm hearing more and more guys on lowish handicaps not bothering to play anymore, sad its got to that.

    Who else feels the same?
    Not me.

    We have one handicap knockout, and it's rare it's won by anyone much over 10. Lower handicaps dominate the later rounds year after year.

    SGU have the statistics on their site, the case is proven, the lower handicap player tends to win matches more often.

  6. #146
    Challenge Tour Pro TheDiablo's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by butty57 View Post
    Very much so!! Our main club knockout open to all handicaps is hardly ever won by anyone under 10 handicap - never by a scratch player - that has to say that something is not right, surely?
    I don't have a problem with handicaps at match-play but we lower handicaps players are not starting from a level playing field.
    The reason being is that the higher handicap player is given the difference in 'shots' starting at stroke index 1 - the toughest hole for both handicaps.
    Example.
    I'm off 8, and say I play someone off 12, we are both expected to make bogey at stroke index 1, so if he is given a shot over me at this hole then it goes without saying that he is more likely to win that hole more times than not, statistically speaking.
    So what makes this worse is that I have to give him 4 shots which he takes then at the 4 hardest holes for me - almost giving him a 4 hole start!

    In my opinion the fairer way to play match-play is to let each play have their full handicap allowance (if it has to be full), and not the difference.
    So in the same case above, we both get shots on stroke indexes 1-8, then he gets his extra 4 shots on holes 9-12, where I am expected to make pars to his bogeys, and then the other 6 holes are then played with no shot differences.
    To me this then allows the scoring on the day to make a difference but from a much fairer starting point.
    Isn't that simpler and fairer?

    Does anyone else have an opinion on my suggestions?
    How do we start a campaign to put this to the R&A?
    You know if you literally go by your example, you're supposed to win 9-12 and therefore cancel out his '4 hole headstart' back to a/s. You're purely looking at this from your own perspective, which comes across bitter.

  7. #147
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    This is like Cyclist v Motorists you are in one camp or the other.
    But the full hcap and lately 9/10 this only helps one camp.
    We recently played in a team comp and shot 12 under gross chaps 1-5-5-6 never got in the top six.
    Its putting us off playing in open comps it's just a day out now.
    Last year we had a chance now no chance!

  8. #148
    Hall of Famer Liverpoolphil's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by clubchamp98 View Post
    This is like Cyclist v Motorists you are in one camp or the other.
    But the full hcap and lately 9/10 this only helps one camp.
    We recently played in a team comp and shot 12 under gross chaps 1-5-5-6 never got in the top six.
    Its putting us off playing in open comps it's just a day out now.
    Last year we had a chance now no chance!
    Since the changes have happened we have noticed no difference to who wins the comps

    Low - mid HC are still winning the singles KO

    And in the big 4BBB it was won by a 4 HC ( me ) and a 6 HC

    The winter League was won by a 7 HC and 10 HC

    So the changes have not made a difference to who wins and I suspect that's valid at most clubs

  9. #149
    Assistant Pro
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    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by butty57 View Post
    Very much so!! Our main club knockout open to all handicaps is hardly ever won by anyone under 10 handicap - never by a scratch player - that has to say that something is not right, surely?
    I don't have a problem with handicaps at match-play but we lower handicaps players are not starting from a level playing field.
    The reason being is that the higher handicap player is given the difference in 'shots' starting at stroke index 1 - the toughest hole for both handicaps.
    Example.
    I'm off 8, and say I play someone off 12, we are both expected to make bogey at stroke index 1, so if he is given a shot over me at this hole then it goes without saying that he is more likely to win that hole more times than not, statistically speaking.
    So what makes this worse is that I have to give him 4 shots which he takes then at the 4 hardest holes for me - almost giving him a 4 hole start!

    In my opinion the fairer way to play match-play is to let each play have their full handicap allowance (if it has to be full), and not the difference.
    So in the same case above, we both get shots on stroke indexes 1-8, then he gets his extra 4 shots on holes 9-12, where I am expected to make pars to his bogeys, and then the other 6 holes are then played with no shot differences.
    To me this then allows the scoring on the day to make a difference but from a much fairer starting point.
    Isn't that simpler and fairer?

    Does anyone else have an opinion on my suggestions?
    How do we start a campaign to put this to the R&A?
    It's a good idea and sounds logical but he will have 4 shots on easier holes so still likely to win those holes. The problem as i see it is banditry, guys on the way down or those guys who keep a cushion, hence why i like the idea of scratch leagues but 100% difference isn't right.

  10. #150

    Re: Anyone else fed up with matchplay comps against guys with hugh handicaps?

    In my example, I don't see how you think I win 9-12?
    If we both play to our handicaps then holes 1-12 would be halved?
    (On 9-12 assuming I make par, and assuming he makes bogeys, they are net pars)

    I also never said he gets a 4-hole headstart in my example; I suggested that's with the current stroke allowance scheme.

    Didn't intend to sound bitter - just trying to put across what I think is a fairer system.
    If I do sound bitter, then it's probably only reflecting what all players I meet say to me.
    And that even goes for 16 handicappers who have had to play 28 handicappers.

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