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  1. #1

    Countback/tiebreak query

    Morning folks, been a lurker on here for a while but this is my first post, so please be gentle!

    I have a query about a countback/tiebreak scenario at our club last week and cannot for the life of me work out how it was decided! I'll try to keep this as succinct as possible, but obviously want to include as much detail for you guys to hopefully advise...

    There were three of us tied for a gross prize; Player A (myself), Player B and Player C. I had a back nine one stroke better than the other two players, so I was listed in the competition results on howdidido (and subsequently on the printed results displayed on the clubhouse noticeboard, which I'm assuming are generated from the same software anyway) above the other two guys. But the prize was given to Player B.

    All three of us were the same playing h/c. Player B was 0.2 lower than me. Player C was 0.5 lower than me.

    I parred S.I.1, Player B took bogey, Player C took double.

    Player B had 3 birdies (S.I.13, 17 and 18), myself (S.I.2) and Player C (S.I.10) only had 1 each. (Don't know if this has any relevance but it's the only reason I've come up with so far that would possibly present Player B with the prize!)

    I contacted the Comp Sec out of curiosity and was just told that gross tiebreak doesn't go on back 9 countback, "the computer just generates it". I'm at the point now where I don't mind the prize (even though it was a memorial comp for a close friend of my father's, so would have been nice), and the last thing I want to do is get a rep around the club for being difficult or coming across as a sore loser. I would just like to know the process for if/when it happens again.

    Has anyone any similar experience to this or any insight on what process they used or is this likely to be club-specific and the only way to clarify is to pester the Sec? An uncle of mine is a past Comp and H/C Sec and he was stumped when we went through the three cards.

    Unfortunately I don't know what results software the club uses, but if any other info I can provide would help clarify anything then just let me know.

    Thanks for reading...if you made it this far!

  2. #2
    Global Moderator DCB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    Do the Club not have a published account of what "countback" will consist of under their rules of competition?

    E.G. "ties will be decided by the best inward score and, in the event of these tying, by the best for the last six holes; failing that, the last three holes, last hole and then at the discretion of the Competitions Committee."
    Last edited by DCB; 03-May-2017 at 14:09.

  3. #3
    Money List Winner
    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    It is normally decided on last 9, then 6, then 3 then 1 holes.

    Maybe your club has a strange rule, but it ought be displayed before hand. I don't see how the stroke index of holes should affect a gross prize.
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  4. #4

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    Thanks for the replies guys.

    Only reason I mention indexes is because I was beaten out of a prize last year (albeit a nett prize) where myself and another guy had identical back 9s, and was eventually told that it went to Index 1, 2, 3 etc after that. The 3rd is our Index 1 and on that day he made par when I took bogey. I had to do a bit of digging then too, but was happy enough with the outcome as at least I had a black and white answer. But this time round I'm completely stumped!

    Our standard tiebreaks are decided by back 9/6/3 countback, which has me baffled why the gross wouldn't just do the same.

    As mentioned, I'm a bit tentative to go back again looking like I'm making a big deal so was just hoping that someone on here may have experience of the exact same scenario.

    The main frustration is that anyone who I have discreetly raised it with is also baffled!

  5. #5
    Tour Winner
    Join Date
    May 2012

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    A computer doesn't "just generate" a count back: it calculates it on the basis of whatever rules are put into to it. You might want to ask on what basis the computer calculation was made.

    For the standard last 9, last 6, last 3 countback in a gross competition, handicaps are irrelevant.

  6. #6
    Money List Winner
    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    Members shouldn't be baffled, and such decisions should always be the result of the application of existing published rules rather than any subsequent consideration.

    As post #2 points out it is the responsibility of the committee to publish the basis for the resolution of ties in a CoC, so you should simply ask to see it (if it's not already on a noticeboard somewhere). Committees won't want confusion, or ill feeling, so should welcome the matter being brought to their attention.

    My only other comment is that as it's a gross competition the application of anything handicap related would be inappropriate - although the performance on specific holes, which may be SI, related, would be OK (even if a little unusual). Back 9, 6, 3, 1 then hole by hole going back may not have any logic to it but, in the absence of a play off you have to do something and doing what everyone knows and understands is always the best route for committees!
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  7. #7
    Tour Winner
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    CONGU - RESOLUTION OF TIESRule 33-6 of the Rules of Golf empowers the Committee to determine the method for deciding the
    result of ties in both stroke play and match play. Further guidance and recommendations are given in
    Appendix I Part B 10 of the Rules of Golf.
    The most practicable way to decide ties in club and open handicap stroke play competitions is a card
    count-back with the winner determined on the basis of the better inward half, last six holes, last three
    holes etc. Appendix I Part B sets out in 10 (c) this method. In handicap stroke play competitions the
    fractions of the applicable handicaps are deducted from the gross scores for the applicable holes. In
    this context CONGU® directs that the exact fractions i.e. one-half, one-third, one-sixth etc. or
    commonly accepted decimal equivalents are deducted. The fractional or decimal allowances should
    not be rounded to a whole number.

  8. #8
    Tour Winner
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    sarf Lunnon

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    They can't have a system where "the computer just generates it". There must be some system under which the computer is programmed to calculate a winner (Whether that's a valid or fair system is another question though). I think you need to ask on what basis the computer system is supposed to generate a result in case of equal gross scores. Someone must know - as someone must have set it up (or at least must have bought it)
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  9. #9
    Hall of Famer Liverpoolphil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    The "software" will be Club Systems and it looks like it has already worked out the countback on the back 9 as you say that HDID has you at the top

    The club it seems have ignored the system and deemed someone else the winner using some unknown system.

    You need to take a copy of the results on HDID and then ask them to explain why when the software as sorted you out as winner why you haven't got the prize.

  10. #10

    Re: Countback/tiebreak query

    Again, thanks for replies folks, agree and understand with what you're all saying. I had a slim hope that someone on here had a similar experience and maybe knew some process that I'm not aware of, but it would seem there's no apparent logic behind it.

    I completely agree that the computer can't just decide for itself who to pick at random, that it has to have some kind of programming to determine a winner, but that was the initial response I received and I just accepted it as I didn't want to cause a fuss. I'm aware of the general countback rules, which just leaves me even more confused as to how it was decided on this occasion!

    I'm gonna go back to the Comp Sec over the next couple of days about it I think and ask him to do a bit more digging...I'm happy enough to take it on the chin this time, and I'm sure you can appreciate that in certain corners of certain clubs it's not hard to get a bad name for yourself when whispers start spreading about someone who can't let something go! So it just requires a bit of tact. I'm just struggling to let it rest as I haven't been offered any logic as to the process (yet, at least!) and would hate for it to happen again and still be none the wiser!

    I'm 99.99% sure it's nothing personal (despite some of the ribbing I'm getting about that possibility!), so is it looking like it's just a bad error rather than some unique irrational system?!

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