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Thread: Article 50

  1. #9541
    Ryder Cup Winner Hobbit's Avatar
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    That Remain in the form of Cameron, Osborne etc stated that leaving the EU implied leaving the CU and the SM is I suggest somewhat a red herring in respect of making the Brexit case. Because the Leave campaign said that that was all untrue - it was all Project Fear - it was a big lie - and I suggest that many Leave voters believed that Project Fear argument.

    Brexiteers cannot now turn around and say it was not Project Fear at all - that Cameron and Osborne were telling the truth -
    because in doing so they are admitting that it was Leave that was being disingenuous and deceitful in the run-up to the vote. After all such as Daniel Hannan stated very clearly that what Cameron and Osborne were saying was just Project Fear because he said the UK could stay in the SM after leaving the EU.
    And Remainers cannot now say Cameron, Osbourne etc were lying. You can't have it both ways, cake and eat it. Everyone and their dog not only knew what they were voting for they were, quite often, not interested in the spin from politicians.

    How many people had already made their mind up without all the spin, and how many changed their minds because of the spin?
    Give it big humpties

  2. #9542
    Major Champion SwingsitlikeHogan's Avatar
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    And Remainers cannot now say Cameron, Osbourne etc were lying. You can't have it both ways, cake and eat it. Everyone and their dog not only knew what they were voting for they were, quite often, not interested in the spin from politicians.

    How many people had already made their mind up without all the spin, and how many changed their minds because of the spin?
    You are of course quite right. Though the Remain statement was made in the context of the core Leave demand - that of regaining control and sovereignty and thereby UK rejecting Free Movement of labour. As the Leave campaign was built very firmly on that foundation, it is that, and actually that alone, which made the Cameron/Osborne assertion about the SM and the CU true. Were ending freedom of movement of labour NOT a Red Line, then the Cameron/Osborne assertion would not 100% hold.

    But unfortunately Remainers lost the day - it ls Leavers who are in the driving seat and trying to justify specific Red Line positions by sweeping under the carpet what they said about it all being Project Fear and to be ignored as untrue; turning the truth completely on it's head and telling us that we believed what Cameron and Osborne said about the SM and the CU; that we knew it was true because they were telling us so.
    to infinity and beyond...

    ...well from 10.0 to 9.4 this year would be nice.

    And with just the October medal to go - I've got to 8.3

    Job done

  3. #9543
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    That Remain in the form of Cameron, Osborne etc stated that leaving the EU implied leaving the CU and the SM is I suggest somewhat a red herring in respect of making the Brexit case. Because the Leave campaign said that that was all untrue - it was all Project Fear - it was a big lie - and I suggest that many Leave voters believed that Project Fear argument.

    Brexiteers cannot now turn around and say it was not Project Fear at all - that Cameron and Osborne were telling the truth -
    because in doing so they are admitting that it was Leave that was being disingenuous and deceitful in the run-up to the vote. After all such as Daniel Hannan stated very clearly that what Cameron and Osborne were saying was just Project Fear because he said the UK could stay in the SM after leaving the EU.
    The bit in bold is the key part of the argument. We COULD indeed have stayed in the single market and accepted the rules required to stay in it, such as freedom of movement etc, but the government have decided that we will be leaving it. So how were Leave being disingenuous or deceitful by saying that we could have stayed in the SM? We could have chosen to stay in it. Surely it was Remain that you could level that accusation at for saying that we would have to leave.

  4. #9544
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by SwingsitlikeHogan View Post
    Truth be told - I don't expect to hear much more than aspirational words and assertions.
    Aren't aspirational words all you can expect to hear from both sides of the negotiations at the minute? Until negotiations have been completed nobody, on either side, can say how it will be, only how their side would like it to be. Anything that your beloved EU say is only aspirational at this stage. It's not written in stone or guaranteed, it's simply their opening gambit in the negotiations.

  5. #9545
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    Re: Article 50

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/riding...r/#more-101587

    This numpty is what passes for a Tory Westminster Scottish Minister.
    No doubt in what he sees as the right way ahead.

  6. #9546
    Money List Winner Old Skier's Avatar
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Doon frae Troon View Post
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/riding...r/#more-101587

    This numpty is what passes for a Tory Westminster Scottish Minister.
    No doubt in what he sees as the right way ahead.
    An article from 2016, you may have found the rest of the political world has moved on from then.

  7. #9547
    Ryder Cup Winner Hobbit's Avatar
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Doon frae Troon View Post
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/riding...r/#more-101587

    This numpty is what passes for a Tory Westminster Scottish Minister.
    No doubt in what he sees as the right way ahead.
    To be fair to Wings they do quote the Scottish Minister in entirety, "I'm open to Scotland having different Brexit deal if it's doable."

    Maybe you missed the, "if its doable" bit...
    Give it big humpties

  8. #9548
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    To be fair to Wings they do quote the Scottish Minister in entirety, "I'm open to Scotland having different Brexit deal if it's doable."

    Maybe you missed the, "if its doable" bit...
    No, maybe you missed the 'no special deal' bit

  9. #9549
    Ryder Cup Winner Hobbit's Avatar
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    Re: Article 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Doon frae Troon View Post
    No, maybe you missed the 'no special deal' bit
    Didn't miss it at all. Just don't see the need to get all hot and bothered about nothing. But carry on being professionally offended, and polishing that huge chip on your shoulder...
    Give it big humpties

  10. #9550
    Journeyman Pro maxfli65's Avatar
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    Re: Article 50

    So BorisJ is going to make conciliatory noises about Brexit today and try to make out he is chief mediator in bringing the 2 sides and the country together. Total waste of time imo, he was chief scaremonger during the referendum and is in no place to mediate and no remainer believes a word he says anyway. Seems he's almost deluded about how much he thinks people care for his views. He is utter marmite too. May on the other hand is utterly powerless and feeble in not leading better.

    Parliament wont vote through a hard Brexit that Farage/Johnson and Rees-Mogg want (minority) given MPs views. They wont vote through May's less hard version of Brexit either (whatever that is) so rumours increasing they'll have to have a second referendum to try and resolve the impasse or else it just floats about for the foreseeable until end March 2019 largely unresolved, what happens then via some leaving transition period they cant agree on, who knows, only a mere 13.5 months away too.

    Both my inlaws were hard leavers, speaking yesterday they still like the idea of leaving but seem to accept it's likely unworkable or unachievable and have softened considerably on it to the point of 'is all this hassle worth it' and being on the fence now. Is that a likely extrapolated position countrywide - Brexit fatigue?

    Seriosuly, what do we do? Trust our wonderful politicians to sort it out?

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